New low cost families other than from Xilinx are
known to be coming
this autumn (Cyclone-3, MAX3, LatticeXP2) but there is no advance info
an Spartan-4 yet, is there a hope at all that there will be modern low
cost family from Xilinx too?

Spartan-3 is 'not for new designs' as there is no price roadmap for it,
Spartan-3E only has small members, eg not replacement for S3

so we have vacuum in the place of Spartan-4 !

I wonder if that vacuum will be filled with Cyclone-3 or is Spartan-4
coming this autumn?

Antti

Antti <A...@xilant.com> wrote:
> New low cost families other than from Xilinx are known to be coming
> this autumn (Cyclone-3, MAX3, LatticeXP2) but there is no advance info
> an Spartan-4 yet, is there a hope at all that there will be modern low
> cost family from Xilinx too?

> Spartan-3 is 'not for new designs' as there is no price roadmap for it,
> Spartan-3E only has small members, eg not replacement for S3

> so we have vacuum in the place of Spartan-4 !

> I wonder if that vacuum will be filled with Cyclone-3 or is Spartan-4
> coming this autumn?

Related to this subject:

Did anybody see a XC3S500E-PQ208 out in the wild?

-- 
Uwe Bonnes                b...@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de

Institut fuer Kernphysik  Schlossgartenstrasse 9  64289 Darmstadt
--------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------

Uwe Bonnes schrieb:

> Antti <A...@xilant.com> wrote:
> > New low cost families other than from Xilinx are known to be coming
> > this autumn (Cyclone-3, MAX3, LatticeXP2) but there is no advance info
> > an Spartan-4 yet, is there a hope at all that there will be modern low
> > cost family from Xilinx too?
>
> > Spartan-3 is 'not for new designs' as there is no price roadmap for it,
> > Spartan-3E only has small members, eg not replacement for S3
>
> > so we have vacuum in the place of Spartan-4 !
>
> > I wonder if that vacuum will be filled with Cyclone-3 or is Spartan-4
> > coming this autumn?
>
> Related to this subject:
>
> Did anybody see a XC3S500E-PQ208 out in the wild?
>
> --
> Uwe Bonnes                b...@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de
>
> Institut fuer Kernphysik  Schlossgartenstrasse 9  64289 Darmstadt
> --------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------

Sure! I have a board with that chip on. It was the first S3e board
being shipped at all ASFAIK (looong time before s3esk !), its the s3e
usb module from cesys GmbH

Antti

Antti schrieb:
> New low cost families other than from Xilinx are known to be coming
> this autumn (Cyclone-3, MAX3, LatticeXP2) but there is no advance info
> an Spartan-4 yet, is there a hope at all that there will be modern low
> cost family from Xilinx too?
> 
> Spartan-3 is 'not for new designs' as there is no price roadmap for it,
> Spartan-3E only has small members, eg not replacement for S3
> 
> so we have vacuum in the place of Spartan-4 !

Is this paranoia or what?
Or am I getting old, damm I just turned 30 ;-)
Even if Spartan-3 is not TOTALLY brand new, I guess its fine for a few 
more years to come.
What do you want, guys? A new FPGA family every 6 month, similar to new 
high power graphic adapters for PCs?
Isnt this wheel of "inovation" spinning a little bit too fast?
How about fixing silicone AND software and getting a good stable ISE 
platform?

Just my old two cents
Falk

Falk Brunner schrieb:

> Antti schrieb:
> > New low cost families other than from Xilinx are known to be coming
> > this autumn (Cyclone-3, MAX3, LatticeXP2) but there is no advance info
> > an Spartan-4 yet, is there a hope at all that there will be modern low
> > cost family from Xilinx too?
> >
> > Spartan-3 is 'not for new designs' as there is no price roadmap for it,
> > Spartan-3E only has small members, eg not replacement for S3
> >
> > so we have vacuum in the place of Spartan-4 !
>
> Is this paranoia or what?
> Or am I getting old, damm I just turned 30 ;-)
> Even if Spartan-3 is not TOTALLY brand new, I guess its fine for a few
> more years to come.
> What do you want, guys? A new FPGA family every 6 month, similar to new
> high power graphic adapters for PCs?
> Isnt this wheel of "inovation" spinning a little bit too fast?
> How about fixing silicone AND software and getting a good stable ISE
> platform?
>
> Just my old two cents
> Falk

Falk, your turn is OK. I have turned over 40, I think :)

if you asked for price forecast for Spartan-3 more than a year ago then
Xilinx response would have been that there is no price roadmap and that
S3e should be considered instead. But S3e only covers the smallest
members of the S3.

regarding the fix of the silicon AND software, sure I wish that too!
but I am not even hoping for the software to be fixed anymore. and I
expect the silicon to have minor errata as well. The thing is that if
S3 is out, and selling then whatever fixes it may need they will be
applied in next family. S3e did it partially but as it is not
replacement for S3, then in may eyes the modern Xilinx low cost family
just isnt here yet.

The s3e advantages over S3 may look like 'small things' but they are of
sufficient significance in many designs. So I think it would be a real
good thing if Xilinx low cost family would be out, with all the
features present in S3e and with array size and package option coverage
as wide as of S3. I assume that should be Spartan-4 unless Xilinx is
getting out from 'low cost FPGA' business.

Antti

Antti <A...@xilant.com> wrote:
...
> >
> > Related to this subject:
> >
> > Did anybody see a XC3S500E-PQ208 out in the wild?
> >

> Sure! I have a board with that chip on. It was the first S3e board
> being shipped at all ASFAIK (looong time before s3esk !), its the s3e
> usb module from cesys GmbH

Neither the "Xilinx" Online store nor digikey list that part...
-- 
Uwe Bonnes                b...@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de

Institut fuer Kernphysik  Schlossgartenstrasse 9  64289 Darmstadt
--------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------

Antti schrieb:

> Falk, your turn is OK. I have turned over 40, I think :)
> 
> if you asked for price forecast for Spartan-3 more than a year ago then
> Xilinx response would have been that there is no price roadmap and that

Do you REALLY expect a VALID forecast of prices in world/business, that 
changes THAT fast? Or should I say, a world that is that hectic.
Or is it just fast-paced?

> S3e should be considered instead. But S3e only covers the smallest
> members of the S3.

> regarding the fix of the silicon AND software, sure I wish that too!
> but I am not even hoping for the software to be fixed anymore. and I
> expect the silicon to have minor errata as well. The thing is that if

The minor eerata of silicone are one thing, but the software is IMHO the 
biggest problem. Thousands of features are getting added, and not just 
added, they get added in a hurry. The result is well known.
After all this amount to the question, do we want a Ferrari (new 
devices) that is damm fast but also damm often in the workshop, or would 
we rather prefer a settled Audi, not quite as fast and fancy, but damm 
reliable? I would go for the second option without a second of hesitation!

> S3 is out, and selling then whatever fixes it may need they will be
> applied in next family. S3e did it partially but as it is not
> replacement for S3, then in may eyes the modern Xilinx low cost family
> just isnt here yet.

There will never be a low cost family that satifies the customers. They 
ALWAYS cry for lower prices. "Geiz ist geil" as it is said here.

> The s3e advantages over S3 may look like 'small things' but they are of
> sufficient significance in many designs. So I think it would be a real
> good thing if Xilinx low cost family would be out, with all the
> features present in S3e and with array size and package option coverage
> as wide as of S3. I assume that should be Spartan-4 unless Xilinx is

Sounds like a wishlist for Santa Clause ;-)
You always want lower prices, more features etc.
A neverending story . . ..  ;-)

> getting out from 'low cost FPGA' business.

I dont think so.

MfG
Falk

Antti wrote:
> New low cost families other than from Xilinx are known to be coming
> this autumn (Cyclone-3, MAX3, LatticeXP2) but there is no advance info
> an Spartan-4 yet, is there a hope at all that there will be modern low
> cost family from Xilinx too?
> 
> Spartan-3 is 'not for new designs' as there is no price roadmap for it,
> Spartan-3E only has small members, eg not replacement for S3
> 
> so we have vacuum in the place of Spartan-4 !
> 
> I wonder if that vacuum will be filled with Cyclone-3 or is Spartan-4
> coming this autumn?

Any info out yet on what MAX3 looks like ?
Does it improve Static Icc, and lack of memory of MAX II, for example ?
Smallest devices / largest devices  ?

-jg

Antti wrote:
> New low cost families other than from Xilinx are known to be coming
> this autumn (Cyclone-3, MAX3, LatticeXP2) but there is no advance info
> an Spartan-4 yet, is there a hope at all that there will be modern low
> cost family from Xilinx too?
> 
> Spartan-3 is 'not for new designs' as there is no price roadmap for it,
> Spartan-3E only has small members, eg not replacement for S3
> 
> so we have vacuum in the place of Spartan-4 !
> 
> I wonder if that vacuum will be filled with Cyclone-3 or is Spartan-4
> coming this autumn?
> 
> Antti

I don't know about positioning but

http://tinyurl.com/fvup6

(or 
http://www.xilinx.com/xlnx/xil_ans_display.jsp?iLanguageID=1&iCountryID=1&getPageP
ath=23856)

John_H schrieb:

> Antti wrote:
> > New low cost families other than from Xilinx are known to be coming
> > this autumn (Cyclone-3, MAX3, LatticeXP2) but there is no advance info
> > an Spartan-4 yet, is there a hope at all that there will be modern low
> > cost family from Xilinx too?
> >
> > Spartan-3 is 'not for new designs' as there is no price roadmap for it,
> > Spartan-3E only has small members, eg not replacement for S3
> >
> > so we have vacuum in the place of Spartan-4 !
> >
> > I wonder if that vacuum will be filled with Cyclone-3 or is Spartan-4
> > coming this autumn?
> >
> > Antti
>
> I don't know about positioning but
>
> http://tinyurl.com/fvup6
>
> (or
>
http://www.xilinx.com/xlnx/xil_ans_display.jsp?iLanguageID=1&iCountryID=1&getPageP
ath=23856)

Thanks John,
its only visible from 8.2 SP2

but here is quick link to Spartan3A libraries guide :)
http://toolbox.xilinx.com/docsan/xilinx82/books/docs/s3adl/s3adl.pdf

it looks like the ICAP and therefore self-reconfiguration is added to
Spartan-3A, but it still lacks the SPI or NOR flash configuration that
is available on S3e.

those the Spartan3A may be the replacement part for Spartan-3 meaning
that Spartan-4 is possible even further away from being available, I
was
expecting Spartan-4 announcement of prelim info in 6 months from now,
but guess we have to wait more.

actually no, the Spartan3e is partial downgrade from s3e ?
only xc3s50a, xc3s200a, xc3s400a, xc3s700a, xc3s1400a
so no large Spartan3a devices either :(

is the Spartan-3 family really the last big low cost Xilinx FPGA ??

http://xilant.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=28&Itemid=1
I wrote down the non-NDA info about Spartan3A

there is now DNA port as direct primitive, to be linked with the
genetic what?

Antti