Hi, guys,

I have been several years experience on FPGA networking application
design, but I come up with the a question about math operation in
FPGA. I need to perform Integral operation. I don't know if there is
existing library which offer this function, or DSP? I think the last
option is to run the integral library in the embedded PowerPC in
Xilinx FPGA, but don't know how the performance is. Could anybody
indicate how to achieve this goal?

Many thanks,

Yixuan

On Jul 2, 7:59=A0am, Simon
<wlpstx...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, guys,
>
> I have been several years experience on FPGA networking application
> design, but I come up with the a question about math operation in
> FPGA. I need to perform Integral operation. I don't know if there is
> existing library which offer this function, or DSP? I think the last
> option is to run the integral library in the embedded PowerPC in
> Xilinx FPGA, but don't know how the performance is. Could anybody
> indicate how to achieve this goal?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Yixuan

An integral using continuous variables is essentially a multiply
operation with a continuous sum performed by an "integrator" circuit.
When using discrete time variable in digital logic, the multiply is
straight forward and often omitted since that is just a scale factor
and can be done elsewhere.  The sum is now discrete and is a simple
matter of a continuous accumulation using an... accumulator.

If you can provide some details of your signal and exactly what you
want to do, maybe we can give some additional advice?

Rick

>On Jul 2, 7:59=A0am, Simon
<wlpstx...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi, guys,
>>
>> I have been several years experience on FPGA networking application
>> design, but I come up with the a question about math operation in
>> FPGA. I need to perform Integral operation. I don't know if there is
>> existing library which offer this function, or DSP? I think the last
>> option is to run the integral library in the embedded PowerPC in
>> Xilinx FPGA, but don't know how the performance is. Could anybody
>> indicate how to achieve this goal?
>>
>> Many thanks,
>>
>> Yixuan
>
>An integral using continuous variables is essentially a multiply
>operation with a continuous sum performed by an "integrator" circuit.
>When using discrete time variable in digital logic, the multiply is
>straight forward and often omitted since that is just a scale factor
>and can be done elsewhere.  The sum is now discrete and is a simple
>matter of a continuous accumulation using an... accumulator.
>
>If you can provide some details of your signal and exactly what you
>want to do, maybe we can give some additional advice?
>
>Rick

Integration is not just about summation of the discrete values. It couldalso mean finding the area of the region encompassed by the given numbersin Cartesian coordinates. Yixuan, if that's what you are looking for, youmay have to implement some adaptive quadrature algorithm.
The simplest way is to calculate the area as the curve builds for each andevery clock signal. Assuming that clock goes at the rate of one unit inx-axis, you would need to evaluate int(n) = int(n-1) + 0.5 * diff(f(n),f(n-1)) + min(f(n), f(n-1)), where f(n) is your function value at the nthclock.

http://sunnyeves.blogspot.com/

On Jul 2, 1:31=C2=A0pm, rickman
<gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 2, 7:59=C2=A0am, Simon <wlpstx...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi, guys,
>
> > I have been several years experience on FPGA networking application
> > design, but I come up with the a question about math operation in
> > FPGA. I need to perform Integral operation. I don't know if there is
> > existing library which offer this function, or DSP? I think the last
> > option is to run the integral library in the embedded PowerPC in
> > Xilinx FPGA, but don't know how the performance is. Could anybody
> > indicate how to achieve this goal?
>
> > Many thanks,
>
> > Yixuan
>
> An integral using continuous variables is essentially a multiply
> operation with a continuous sum performed by an "integrator" circuit.
> When using discrete time variable in digital logic, the multiply is
> straight forward and often omitted since that is just a scale factor
> and can be done elsewhere. =C2=A0The sum is now discrete and is a simple
> matter of a continuous accumulation using an... accumulator.
>
> If you can provide some details of your signal and exactly what you
> want to do, maybe we can give some additional advice?
>
> Rick

Hi=EF=BC=8CRick,

Regarding the integral I'm using it goes something like that:

If f(x) is the function to be integrated then

q =3D quadl(@(x) f(x),a,b,tol),

where quadl approximately integrates the f(x) from a to b using an
error tolerance tol.

Yixuan

On Jul 3, 4:08=A0am, "Sundar S"
<krishna....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Jul 2, 7:59=3DA0am, Simon <wlpstx...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Hi, guys,
>
> >> I have been several years experience on FPGA networking application
> >> design, but I come up with the a question about math operation in
> >> FPGA. I need to perform Integral operation. I don't know if there is
> >> existing library which offer this function, or DSP? I think the last
> >> option is to run the integral library in the embedded PowerPC in
> >> Xilinx FPGA, but don't know how the performance is. Could anybody
> >> indicate how to achieve this goal?
>
> >> Many thanks,
>
> >> Yixuan
>
> >An integral using continuous variables is essentially a multiply
> >operation with a continuous sum performed by an "integrator" circuit.
> >When using discrete time variable in digital logic, the multiply is
> >straight forward and often omitted since that is just a scale factor
> >and can be done elsewhere. =A0The sum is now discrete and is a simple
> >matter of a continuous accumulation using an... accumulator.
>
> >If you can provide some details of your signal and exactly what you
> >want to do, maybe we can give some additional advice?
>
> >Rick
>
> Integration is not just about summation of the discrete values. It could
> also mean finding the area of the region encompassed by the given numbers
> in Cartesian coordinates. Yixuan, if that's what you are looking for, you
> may have to implement some adaptive quadrature algorithm.
> The simplest way is to calculate the area as the curve builds for each an=
d
> every clock signal. Assuming that clock goes at the rate of one unit in
> x-axis, you would need to evaluate int(n) =3D int(n-1) + 0.5 * diff(f(n),
> f(n-1)) + min(f(n), f(n-1)), where f(n) is your function value at the nth
> clock.
>
> http://sunnyeves.blogspot.com/

Hi, Sundar,

I am thinking to use Xilinx Multiply Accumulator (MAC) core
http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/ip_documentation/mac.pdf
to do the integral. I don't know if it's feasible, or has anybody done
this, or have better option. Thanks,

Yixuan

On Jul 2, 11:08 pm, "Sundar S"
<krishna....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Jul 2, 7:59=A0am, Simon <wlpstx...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Hi, guys,
>
> >> I have been several years experience on FPGA networking application
> >> design, but I come up with the a question about math operation in
> >> FPGA. I need to perform Integral operation. I don't know if there is
> >> existing library which offer this function, or DSP? I think the last
> >> option is to run the integral library in the embedded PowerPC in
> >> Xilinx FPGA, but don't know how the performance is. Could anybody
> >> indicate how to achieve this goal?
>
> >> Many thanks,
>
> >> Yixuan
>
> >An integral using continuous variables is essentially a multiply
> >operation with a continuous sum performed by an "integrator" circuit.
> >When using discrete time variable in digital logic, the multiply is
> >straight forward and often omitted since that is just a scale factor
> >and can be done elsewhere.  The sum is now discrete and is a simple
> >matter of a continuous accumulation using an... accumulator.
>
> >If you can provide some details of your signal and exactly what you
> >want to do, maybe we can give some additional advice?
>
> >Rick
>
> Integration is not just about summation of the discrete values. It could
> also mean finding the area of the region encompassed by the given numbers
> in Cartesian coordinates. Yixuan, if that's what you are looking for, you
> may have to implement some adaptive quadrature algorithm.
> The simplest way is to calculate the area as the curve builds for each and
> every clock signal. Assuming that clock goes at the rate of one unit in
> x-axis, you would need to evaluate int(n) = int(n-1) + 0.5 * diff(f(n),
> f(n-1)) + min(f(n), f(n-1)), where f(n) is your function value at the nth
> clock.
>
> http://sunnyeves.blogspot.com/

That calculation looks complex, but isn't it really just

int(n) = int(n-1) + 0.5 * (f(n) - f(n-1))

The 0.5 times the difference assumes that the function is a straight
line between the two end points and when added to the min value is
just the average of the two points.  This is an approximation, but
depending you your needs will be adequate.

I would argue that for an arbitrary function, there is no advantage to
using the average of each two points over just summing the points.
Consider points 0 to N where N is a large number.

N
< f(n) = f(1) + f(2) + ... + f(N)
<
1

N
< avg(f(n),f(n-1) = 0.5 f(0) + f(1) + f(2) + ... + 0.5 * f(N)
<
1

Notice that the only difference is that the average needs an extra
input point to calculate the first average and that the two end points
of the summation are halved.  Numerically the difference between the
two calculations is 0.5 * (f(n) - f(0)).  It appears to me to be a
very minuscule error to just add all the points without the complexity
of averaging.  I would bet that for any value of N, 256 or over, this
error in the integral is much less than the error you get by the
original straight line average approximation.

In fact, whether you the average is correct or not depends on how you
picture the error formation.  This is too complex to draw here, but if
you picture the sample as being centered in the region being
integrated by adding that value, then the error is only a function of
the second order components of f(x).  To require an average
calculation you are assuming that the area being calculated for a
given point is the area *between* two points.

I could explain this more fully, but it is very hard to do without a
drawing.


Rick

On Thu, 2 Jul 2009 04:59:02 -0700 (PDT), Simon
<w...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Hi, guys,
>
>I have been several years experience on FPGA networking application
>design, but I come up with the a question about math operation in
>FPGA. I need to perform Integral operation. I don't know if there is
>existing library which offer this function, or DSP? I think the last
>option is to run the integral library in the embedded PowerPC in
>Xilinx FPGA, but don't know how the performance is. Could anybody
>indicate how to achieve this goal?

What you need is called numerical integration. Depending on the level
of accuracy needed, there are various ways of accomplishing it but at
the basic level it is an accumulator of the values of the function
needed to be integrated. Suppose you want to integrate a function f(t)
from t=a to t=b. The crudes integration would be to assume function f
has an average value of (f(b)+f(a))/s over this range so you integral
is (b-a) * (f(b)+f(a))/2. A better way is to divide the range [a b]
into small Dt slots (say N of them) and then iterate over this set
which makes the result (a+b)/N*(sum{(i=0;i<N) f(a+i*Dt)} which
basically says that you make small rectangles from the area under f(t)
and every rectange has an area of its width (Dt) times the value of
the function at the left hand x coordinate of the function. For
"smooth" functions this usually gives a pretty good result if your N
is "large enough" compared to "smoothness" of the function.
Here is a reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_integration
which has further references.
-
Muzaffer Kal

DSPIA INC.
ASIC/FPGA Design Services

http://www.dspia.com

>On Jul 2, 11:08 pm, "Sundar S"
<krishna....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Jul 2, 7:59=A0am, Simon <wlpstx...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Hi, guys,
>>
>> >> I have been several years experience on FPGA networking application
>> >> design, but I come up with the a question about math operation in
>> >> FPGA. I need to perform Integral operation. I don't know if thereis
>> >> existing library which offer this function, or DSP? I think thelast
>> >> option is to run the integral library in the embedded PowerPC in
>> >> Xilinx FPGA, but don't know how the performance is. Could anybody
>> >> indicate how to achieve this goal?
>>
>> >> Many thanks,
>>
>> >> Yixuan
>>
>> >An integral using continuous variables is essentially a multiply
>> >operation with a continuous sum performed by an "integrator"
circuit.
>> >When using discrete time variable in digital logic, the multiply is
>> >straight forward and often omitted since that is just a scale factor
>> >and can be done elsewhere.  The sum is now discrete and is a simple
>> >matter of a continuous accumulation using an... accumulator.
>>
>> >If you can provide some details of your signal and exactly what you
>> >want to do, maybe we can give some additional advice?
>>
>> >Rick
>>
>> Integration is not just about summation of the discrete values. Itcould
>> also mean finding the area of the region encompassed by the givennumbers
>> in Cartesian coordinates. Yixuan, if that's what you are looking for,you
>> may have to implement some adaptive quadrature algorithm.
>> The simplest way is to calculate the area as the curve builds for eachand
>> every clock signal. Assuming that clock goes at the rate of one unitin
>> x-axis, you would need to evaluate int(n) = int(n-1) + 0.5 *diff(f(n),
>> f(n-1)) + min(f(n), f(n-1)), where f(n) is your function value at thenth
>> clock.
>>
>> http://sunnyeves.blogspot.com/
>
>That calculation looks complex, but isn't it really just
>
>int(n) = int(n-1) + 0.5 * (f(n) - f(n-1))
>
>The 0.5 times the difference assumes that the function is a straight
>line between the two end points and when added to the min value is
>just the average of the two points.  This is an approximation, but
>depending you your needs will be adequate.
>
>I would argue that for an arbitrary function, there is no advantage to
>using the average of each two points over just summing the points.
>Consider points 0 to N where N is a large number.
>
>N
>< f(n) = f(1) + f(2) + ... + f(N)
><
>1
>
>N
>< avg(f(n),f(n-1) = 0.5 f(0) + f(1) + f(2) + ... + 0.5 * f(N)
><
>1
>
>Notice that the only difference is that the average needs an extra
>input point to calculate the first average and that the two end points
>of the summation are halved.  Numerically the difference between the
>two calculations is 0.5 * (f(n) - f(0)).  It appears to me to be a
>very minuscule error to just add all the points without the complexity
>of averaging.  I would bet that for any value of N, 256 or over, this
>error in the integral is much less than the error you get by the
>original straight line average approximation.
>
>In fact, whether you the average is correct or not depends on how you
>picture the error formation.  This is too complex to draw here, but if
>you picture the sample as being centered in the region being
>integrated by adding that value, then the error is only a function of
>the second order components of f(x).  To require an average
>calculation you are assuming that the area being calculated for a
>given point is the area *between* two points.
>
>I could explain this more fully, but it is very hard to do without a
>drawing.
>
>
>Rick
>

@Rick,
0.5 * (f(n) - f(0)) is the straight line approximation of the entirefunction. It gives the area of a triangle with base equal to 1 and heightequals to f(n) - f(0). But that's not the actual area as f(0) is somewherehanging above x-axis. So we have to consider the square that is formedbetween the zeroth position and nth position so that you can get area belowthe curve.

The calculation that I put up look complex, but if I assume that f(n) >f(n-1), what I get is: for every clock tic: int(n) = int(n-1) + (f(n) -f(n-1))>> 1 + f(n). Here as the curve grows by unit distance, the area iscalculated as the area of the rising triangle plus the area of therectangle that supports the triangle above x-axis.

@Yixuan,
You gave a vital information by telling that you use quadl of Matlab.quadl is actually an implementation of lobatto quadrature. Implementingthat in FPGA may be really difficult. But what lobatto gives as output isthe area under the curve with certain approximation. In FPGA thatapproximation anyway comes in terms of discretisation. Also in FPGA youwould not get a function to integrate; you usually get the values of thefunction. In this case, the triangle-rectangle method would do.

http://sunnyeves.blogspot.com/

On Jul 4, 4:50 am, "Sundar S"
<krishna....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Jul 2, 11:08 pm, "Sundar S" <krishna....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Jul 2, 7:59=A0am, Simon <wlpstx...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> Hi, guys,
>
> >> >> I have been several years experience on FPGA networking
application
> >> >> design, but I come up with the a question about math operation in
> >> >> FPGA. I need to perform Integral operation. I don't know if there
> is
> >> >> existing library which offer this function, or DSP? I think the
> last
> >> >> option is to run the integral library in the embedded PowerPC in
> >> >> Xilinx FPGA, but don't know how the performance is. Could anybody
> >> >> indicate how to achieve this goal?
>
> >> >> Many thanks,
>
> >> >> Yixuan
>
> >> >An integral using continuous variables is essentially a multiply
> >> >operation with a continuous sum performed by an "integrator"
circuit.
> >> >When using discrete time variable in digital logic, the multiply is
> >> >straight forward and often omitted since that is just a scale factor
> >> >and can be done elsewhere.  The sum is now discrete and is a simple
> >> >matter of a continuous accumulation using an... accumulator.
>
> >> >If you can provide some details of your signal and exactly what you
> >> >want to do, maybe we can give some additional advice?
>
> >> >Rick
>
> >> Integration is not just about summation of the discrete values. It
> could
> >> also mean finding the area of the region encompassed by the given
> numbers
> >> in Cartesian coordinates. Yixuan, if that's what you are looking for,
> you
> >> may have to implement some adaptive quadrature algorithm.
> >> The simplest way is to calculate the area as the curve builds for each
> and
> >> every clock signal. Assuming that clock goes at the rate of one unit
> in
> >> x-axis, you would need to evaluate int(n) = int(n-1) + 0.5 *
> diff(f(n),
> >> f(n-1)) + min(f(n), f(n-1)), where f(n) is your function value at the
> nth
> >> clock.
>
> >>http://sunnyeves.blogspot.com/
>
> >That calculation looks complex, but isn't it really just
>
> >int(n) = int(n-1) + 0.5 * (f(n) - f(n-1))
>
> >The 0.5 times the difference assumes that the function is a straight
> >line between the two end points and when added to the min value is
> >just the average of the two points.  This is an approximation, but
> >depending you your needs will be adequate.
>
> >I would argue that for an arbitrary function, there is no advantage to
> >using the average of each two points over just summing the points.
> >Consider points 0 to N where N is a large number.
>
> >N
> >< f(n) = f(1) + f(2) + ... + f(N)
> ><
> >1
>
> >N
> >< avg(f(n),f(n-1) = 0.5 f(0) + f(1) + f(2) + ... + 0.5 * f(N)
> ><
> >1
>
> >Notice that the only difference is that the average needs an extra
> >input point to calculate the first average and that the two end points
> >of the summation are halved.  Numerically the difference between the
> >two calculations is 0.5 * (f(n) - f(0)).  It appears to me to be a
> >very minuscule error to just add all the points without the complexity
> >of averaging.  I would bet that for any value of N, 256 or over, this
> >error in the integral is much less than the error you get by the
> >original straight line average approximation.
>
> >In fact, whether you the average is correct or not depends on how you
> >picture the error formation.  This is too complex to draw here, but if
> >you picture the sample as being centered in the region being
> >integrated by adding that value, then the error is only a function of
> >the second order components of f(x).  To require an average
> >calculation you are assuming that the area being calculated for a
> >given point is the area *between* two points.
>
> >I could explain this more fully, but it is very hard to do without a
> >drawing.
>
> >Rick
>
> @Rick,
> 0.5 * (f(n) - f(0)) is the straight line approximation of the entire
> function. It gives the area of a triangle with base equal to 1 and height
> equals to f(n) - f(0). But that's not the actual area as f(0) is somewhere
> hanging above x-axis. So we have to consider the square that is formed
> between the zeroth position and nth position so that you can get area below
> the curve.
>
> The calculation that I put up look complex, but if I assume that f(n) >
> f(n-1), what I get is: for every clock tic: int(n) = int(n-1) + (f(n) -
> f(n-1))>> 1 + f(n). Here as the curve grows by unit distance, the area is
> calculated as the area of the rising triangle plus the area of the
> rectangle that supports the triangle above x-axis.

I understand perfectly your original calculations.  They are not
complex to understand.  However, they are much more complex than
required.  That is why I made my post explaining how in the infinite
series, your approach approximates the simple sum of the input
values.  The only difference is that your approach can only produce
(N-1) output values for N input values and as a consequence, the final
output will not include the area of one column because you are always
subtracting out the first one.

Your approach errs in the thinking that the area is defined by the
points "surrounding" the area.  What it is ignoring that the points
are *included* in the area.  I suppose that initial int(0) could be
accounting for this somehow, without specifying how that
initialization is to be done.

I made a typo in my original equation which is equivalent to your more
complex calculation.

int(n) = int(n-1) + 0.5 * (f(n) - f(n-1))

should have been

int(n) = int(n-1) + 0.5 * (f(n) + f(n-1))

If you need me to, I can show you in a step wise manner how this is
equivalent to your equation,

int(n) = int(n-1) + 0.5 * diff(f(n), f(n-1)) + min(f(n), f(n-1))

Other than the end points of a series, your equation adds in half of
each data point at two separate times.  So each point is summed to
produce the integral.  Your calculation simply omits half of each end
point.

The mistake that is often made when dealing with discrete time samples
is thinking that they are the same as the instantaneous values of a
continuous function.  In reality they are already integrals of the
amplitude and the sample period (1/f).  That is why you only need to
sum them to obtain the integral over a series.

A simple sum is the correct way to calculate the integral of a
discrete time data series.

Rick

rickman <g...@gmail.com> wrote:
(snip, someone wrote)

<> http://sunnyeves.blogspot.com/
 
< That calculation looks complex, but isn't it really just
 
< int(n) = int(n-1) + 0.5 * (f(n) - f(n-1))
 
< The 0.5 times the difference assumes that the function is a straight
< line between the two end points and when added to the min value is
< just the average of the two points.  This is an approximation, but
< depending you your needs will be adequate.
 
< I would argue that for an arbitrary function, there is no advantage to
< using the average of each two points over just summing the points.
< Consider points 0 to N where N is a large number.
 
< N
< < f(n) = f(1) + f(2) + ... + f(N)
< <
< 1
 
< N
< < avg(f(n),f(n-1) = 0.5 f(0) + f(1) + f(2) + ... + 0.5 * f(N)
< <
< 1
 
< Notice that the only difference is that the average needs an extra
< input point to calculate the first average and that the two end points
< of the summation are halved.  Numerically the difference between the
< two calculations is 0.5 * (f(n) - f(0)).  It appears to me to be a
< very minuscule error to just add all the points without the complexity
< of averaging.  I would bet that for any value of N, 256 or over, this
< error in the integral is much less than the error you get by the
< original straight line average approximation.

Sure, but for small N it might be important.

< In fact, whether you the average is correct or not depends on how you
< picture the error formation.  This is too complex to draw here, but if
< you picture the sample as being centered in the region being
< integrated by adding that value, then the error is only a function of
< the second order components of f(x).  To require an average
< calculation you are assuming that the area being calculated for a
< given point is the area *between* two points.

There is a similar explanation of the uselessness of Simpson't
rule in Numerical Recipes.  Simpson't rule has 1/3's and 2/3's that
look important.  Using a similar argument, NR shows that it
is fancy decoration for the effect at the ends.
 
< I could explain this more fully, but it is very hard to do without a
< drawing.

-- glen