I looked at the postmark on my Atmel Synplicity
CD and it was December
2000. I figure the chances of retrieving my serial number are nil and
I'll assume most people would advise me to get something a little
more up to date. It really has been about a 9 year FPGA hiatus for me
as the company I was helping at the time tanked.

I want to get back into some 'trivial' design work. I'm thinking my
level of sophistication is still at the ~22v10 stage and using
schematic capture vs. programming languages or assembler. I have read
enough to know this is bad form but I still understand 74LSXX and
would like to ease into topics like Verilog. Nothing I do requires
more then a couple of 4 bit counters and maybe a six bit latch with a
bit of glue logic.

It goes without saying I'm a fan of inexpensive as well as dated. I've
seen several web sites with low cost entry level kits and programmers
that will handle 22V10s for under $100.

Can someone tell me what is a good start for someone with my
particular needs? Info like: Best software does not work with xxx so
get a programmer that works with yyy.

TIA
Rick

Rick wrote:

> I want to get back into some 'trivial' design work. I'm thinking my
> level of sophistication is still at the ~22v10 stage and using
> schematic capture vs. programming languages or assembler. I have read
> enough to know this is bad form but I still understand 74LSXX and
> would like to ease into topics like Verilog. Nothing I do requires
> more then a couple of 4 bit counters and maybe a six bit latch with a
> bit of glue logic.

You can do such small logic with a small CPLD, e.g. the XC9572XL from
Xilinx (I've managed to implement two 19 bit counters with it and a SPI
interface for reading). Just download the free Web Edition of Xilinx ISE
and then you can write Verilog or VHDL designs and test it in the
integrated simulator.

If you want a starter kit, maybe this one is a good idea:

http://www.xilinx.com/products/devkits/DO-CPLD-DK-G.htm

If you want to program it in your own boards later, I can recommend the
Xilinx Platform Cable.

Altera has a free web edition of the development environment, too and some
nice CPLDs and starter kits, and some Lattice CPLDs are really inexpensive,
but I don't know the development tools.

-- 
Frank Buss, f...@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de

Rick <r...@gmail.com> writes:

>I looked at the postmark on my Atmel Synplicity CD and it was December
>2000. I figure the chances of retrieving my serial number are nil and
>I'll assume most people would advise me to get something a little
>more up to date. It really has been about a 9 year FPGA hiatus for me
>as the company I was helping at the time tanked.

>I want to get back into some 'trivial' design work. I'm thinking my
>level of sophistication is still at the ~22v10 stage and using
>schematic capture vs. programming languages or assembler. I have read
>enough to know this is bad form but I still understand 74LSXX and
>would like to ease into topics like Verilog. Nothing I do requires
>more then a couple of 4 bit counters and maybe a six bit latch with a
>bit of glue logic.

>It goes without saying I'm a fan of inexpensive as well as dated. I've
>seen several web sites with low cost entry level kits and programmers
>that will handle 22V10s for under $100.

>Can someone tell me what is a good start for someone with my
>particular needs? Info like: Best software does not work with xxx so
>get a programmer that works with yyy.

>TIA
>Rick

	Since I was just down a similar route (although in the end I managed
to find a compiled file of the 16V8 and 20V8 I needed and ran it through my 
B+K prom programmer without having to compile the palasm source), you likely 
want to look at Lattice. They bought MMI and the older versions of their 
software are still available for free  on their web site and appear to 
support the various PALs probably including schematic capture (I needed palasm).
	I think pretty much any programmer that supports the various PALS will 
do. As well as the B+K I have a PC ISA board from the 1980s that will do the 
various pals and gals although I haven't used it in years just check the 
programmer supports the PALs you want to use 
	Altera's QuartisII (at least a couple of years ago) supported schematic
capture/generation of images (as well as Verilog or VHDL) in the free web
edition. I haven't used it recently nor ISE from Xilinx enough to know it they
still do. However neiher as far as I know support PALs only their CPLDs and
the CPLDs are (again as far as I know) all in PLCC packages, not PDIP like the
pals. As well some of the pals are available (cheap!) from the surplus houses
such as All or B+G Micro (ping me if you need web sites) thats where I got the
blanks for the pair I needed :-). 

Peter Van Epp

On Dec 29, 4:44=A0pm, van...@sfu.ca (Peter Van
Epp) wrote:
> Rick <richardcort...@gmail.com> writes:
<snip>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Since I was just down a similar route (although in the en=
d I managed
> to find a compiled file of the 16V8 and 20V8 I needed and ran it through =
my
> B+K prom programmer without having to compile the palasm source), you lik=
ely
> want to look at Lattice. They bought MMI and the older versions of their
> software are still available for free =A0on their web site and appear to
> support the various PALs probably including schematic capture (I needed p=
alasm).
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I think pretty much any programmer that supports the vari=
ous PALS will
> do. As well as the B+K I have a PC ISA board from the 1980s that will do =
the
> various pals and gals although I haven't used it in years just check the
> programmer supports the PALs you want to use

Hehe! I was looking for software for my Needham PB-10 earlier. I
actually found some that is supposed to run under XP but I have to put
it in a computer with ISA slots. I should give up the ghost.

I went ahead and got the development board from Frank's link. It was
only $39+ shipping so it will get me into the current decade. Checked
with Digikey and they have the CPLD in 44 pin PLCC so at least I can
buy a carrier for wire wrap. Price is right too at about $2 per chip.

I will give the Lattice a look and see what I can find. I am trying to
tell myself I am better off with a 44 pin CPLD then a 28 pin GAL. The
CPLD still seems like a lot of club for the distance but prices are
about even.

Rick

On 12/29/2009 6:38 PM, Frank Buss wrote:
> Rick wrote:
>
>> I want to get back into some 'trivial' design work. I'm thinking my
>> level of sophistication is still at the ~22v10 stage and using
>> schematic capture vs. programming languages or assembler. I have read
>> enough to know this is bad form but I still understand 74LSXX and
>> would like to ease into topics like Verilog. Nothing I do requires
>> more then a couple of 4 bit counters and maybe a six bit latch with a
>> bit of glue logic.
>
> You can do such small logic with a small CPLD, e.g. the XC9572XL from
> Xilinx (I've managed to implement two 19 bit counters with it and a SPI
> interface for reading). Just download the free Web Edition of Xilinx ISE
> and then you can write Verilog or VHDL designs and test it in the
> integrated simulator.
>
> If you want a starter kit, maybe this one is a good idea:
>
> http://www.xilinx.com/products/devkits/DO-CPLD-DK-G.htm
>
> If you want to program it in your own boards later, I can recommend the
> Xilinx Platform Cable.
>
> Altera has a free web edition of the development environment, too and some
> nice CPLDs and starter kits, and some Lattice CPLDs are really inexpensive,
> but I don't know the development tools.
>

Looks like the programming cable included in that kit is for a parallel 
port.  Few recent PCs have parallel ports anymore, and I understand that 
USB-to-parallel converters generally don't work with JTAG cables (or 
more accurately with the software).  And while the Xilinx platform cable 
is a great solution, its costs over $200.

For playing around at home I've had good luck with stuff from Digilent: 
www.digilentinc.com (in fact they made the board in your kit).  They 
have USB JTAG cable that's compatible with Xilinx tools and only costs 
$60.  They also have two types of USB JTAG cable that work with their 
free programming software (called Adept) and are even less expensive. 
These are all on the "Cables & connectors" page.

For playing with very simple logic Digilent also has a small board with 
a CoolRunner CPLD for $18 (look for "C-Mod").  It's basically just a way 
to mount the PLCC and bring the connections to DIP pads for easy 
experimenter access, but sometimes that's really handy.

Of course the C-Mod is only 64 macrocells. Digilent also has fairly 
inexpensive FPGA experimenter boards: the "Basys2" board has a Spartan 
3E with 100k gates for $80, and the "Nexys" board has a Spartan 3 with 
400k gates for $90.  Those boards have USB built in, and don't even 
require an additional programming cable.

Chris

Rick <r...@gmail.com> writes:

>On Dec 29, 4:44=A0pm, van...@sfu.ca (Peter Van Epp) wrote:
>> Rick <richardcort...@gmail.com> writes:
><snip>

>Hehe! I was looking for software for my Needham PB-10 earlier. I
>actually found some that is supposed to run under XP but I have to put
>it in a computer with ISA slots. I should give up the ghost.

	I still have the XT clone that it originally ran in (and several other
ISA machines :-)). I even still have an operating Z80 CPM machine (and am 
building a nwe one :-)). 

>I went ahead and got the development board from Frank's link. It was
>only $39+ shipping so it will get me into the current decade. Checked
>with Digikey and they have the CPLD in 44 pin PLCC so at least I can
>buy a carrier for wire wrap. Price is right too at about $2 per chip.

	Horrors! Not an adapter ($$$$), a through hole PLCC socket and some
sip www sockets from Jameco (6100-1X30W-R) or Electronix Express (ssw30s) 
(http://www.elexp.com/ics_sf10.htm and cheapest), All had some at $.50 some 
months back but I cleaned them out :-). Cut to suitable lengths for the PLCC 
pins  the through hole plcc socket plugs in on .1 centers giving you a wirewrap
 adapter for a couple of bucks (you may have to experiment with PLCC sockets 
if the pins are too big, all those I've tried have worked though). This is how 
my 84 PLCC Z80 chip is wire wrapped in.

>I will give the Lattice a look and see what I can find. I am trying to
>tell myself I am better off with a 44 pin CPLD then a 28 pin GAL. The
>CPLD still seems like a lot of club for the distance but prices are
>about even.

	True, and learning the new stuff is a good thing for sure but if a PAL
will do the job, by the time you add in socket cost and board area the PALs
may still be a better bet against a PLCC device (not to mention a lot of the
CPLDs are going 3.3V only). Sometimes the old stuff is still best. 

Peter Van Epp

On Dec 30, 8:07=A0am, Chris Abele
<ccab...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 12/29/2009 6:38 PM, Frank Buss wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Rick wrote:
>
> >> I want to get back into some 'trivial' design work. I'm thinking my
> >> level of sophistication is still at the ~22v10 stage and using
> >> schematic capture vs. programming languages or assembler. I have read
> >> enough to know this is bad form but I still understand 74LSXX and
> >> would like to ease into topics like Verilog. Nothing I do requires
> >> more then a couple of 4 bit counters and maybe a six bit latch with a
> >> bit of glue logic.
>
> > You can do such small logic with a small CPLD, e.g. the XC9572XL from
> > Xilinx (I've managed to implement two 19 bit counters with it and a SPI
> > interface for reading). Just download the free Web Edition of Xilinx IS=
E
> > and then you can write Verilog or VHDL designs and test it in the
> > integrated simulator.
>
> > If you want a starter kit, maybe this one is a good idea:
>
> >http://www.xilinx.com/products/devkits/DO-CPLD-DK-G.htm
>
> > If you want to program it in your own boards later, I can recommend the
> > Xilinx Platform Cable.
>
> > Altera has a free web edition of the development environment, too and s=
ome
> > nice CPLDs and starter kits, and some Lattice CPLDs are really inexpens=
ive,
> > but I don't know the development tools.
>
> Looks like the programming cable included in that kit is for a parallel
> port. =A0Few recent PCs have parallel ports anymore, and I understand tha=
t
> USB-to-parallel converters generally don't work with JTAG cables (or
> more accurately with the software). =A0And while the Xilinx platform cabl=
e
> is a great solution, its costs over $200.
>
> For playing around at home I've had good luck with stuff from Digilent:ww=
w.digilentinc.com(in fact they made the board in your kit). =A0They
> have USB JTAG cable that's compatible with Xilinx tools and only costs
> $60. =A0They also have two types of USB JTAG cable that work with their
> free programming software (called Adept) and are even less expensive.
> These are all on the "Cables & connectors" page.
>
> For playing with very simple logic Digilent also has a small board with
> a CoolRunner CPLD for $18 (look for "C-Mod"). =A0It's basically just a wa=
y
> to mount the PLCC and bring the connections to DIP pads for easy
> experimenter access, but sometimes that's really handy.
>
> Of course the C-Mod is only 64 macrocells. Digilent also has fairly
> inexpensive FPGA experimenter boards: the "Basys2" board has a Spartan
> 3E with 100k gates for $80, and the "Nexys" board has a Spartan 3 with
> 400k gates for $90. =A0Those boards have USB built in, and don't even
> require an additional programming cable.
>
> Chris- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thsnkd, I did try Diligent for the 'rookie' board but they listed it
as discontinued so I went to another supplier who still had them in
stock. I am weighing my options and have room for at least one
obsolete computer.

Looks like my best choice for a development platform would be some ISA
slots, USB, serial, and printer ports which puts me somewhere back
about the year 2000 vintage computer. Not really a problem since I
have stuff on either side of that time period. If need be I can always
get a PCI printer port or serial card.

There seems to be a couple of software packages for micros like the
Pony programmer that I may get interested in.

Rick

On Dec 30, 10:50=A0am, van...@sfu.ca (Peter Van
Epp) wrote:
> Rick <richardcort...@gmail.com> writes:
> >On Dec 29, 4:44=3DA0pm, van...@sfu.ca (Peter Van Epp) wrote:
> >> Rick <richardcort...@gmail.com> writes:
> ><snip>
> >Hehe! I was looking for software for my Needham PB-10 earlier. I
> >actually found some that is supposed to run under XP but I have to put
> >it in a computer with ISA slots. I should give up the ghost.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I still have the XT clone that it originally ran in (and =
several other
> ISA machines :-)). I even still have an operating Z80 CPM machine (and am
> building a nwe one :-)).

I had mine in a Tandy 1000TX. Still have the Tandy and it boots but
hard drive is dead and I can't find the keyboard.<sigh> I really have
to move on so it is probably a good thing.
>
> >I went ahead and got the development board from Frank's link. It was
> >only $39+ shipping so it will get me into the current decade. Checked
> >with Digikey and they have the CPLD in 44 pin PLCC so at least I can
> >buy a carrier for wire wrap. Price is right too at about $2 per chip.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Horrors! Not an adapter ($$$$), a through hole PLCC socke=
t and some
> sip www sockets from Jameco (6100-1X30W-R) or Electronix Express (ssw30s)
> (http://www.elexp.com/ics_sf10.htmand cheapest), All had some at $.50 som=
e
> months back but I cleaned them out :-). Cut to suitable lengths for the P=
LCC
> pins =A0the through hole plcc socket plugs in on .1 centers giving you a =
wirewrap
> =A0adapter for a couple of bucks (you may have to experiment with PLCC so=
ckets
> if the pins are too big, all those I've tried have worked though). This i=
s how
> my 84 PLCC Z80 chip is wire wrapped in.

Thanks for the tip. I'm getting old to the point where SOIC and my
vision have crossed. No big problems with .1 centers yet.
>
> >I will give the Lattice a look and see what I can find. I am trying to
> >tell myself I am better off with a 44 pin CPLD then a 28 pin GAL. The
> >CPLD still seems like a lot of club for the distance but prices are
> >about even.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 True, and learning the new stuff is a good thing for sure=
 but if a PAL
> will do the job, by the time you add in socket cost and board area the PA=
Ls
> may still be a better bet against a PLCC device (not to mention a lot of =
the
> CPLDs are going 3.3V only). Sometimes the old stuff is still best.
>
> Peter Van Epp

I'm trying to focus on what I want vs. what I need. My son took my
Super Elf with him to work and lost it. I was thinking I would like to
get a simple 1802 or 65C02 benchtop system going. The smaller Xilinx
CPLD would need its own 3.3V supply but they say 'it is 5v tolerant'
so if I do go that route it won't be to bad. I really should be going
with an AVR or PIC but hard head and soft heart get in the way.

Rick

On Dec 30, 11:11=A0am, Rick
<richardcort...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I want to get back into some 'trivial' design work. I'm thinking my
> level of sophistication is still at the ~22v10 stage and using
> schematic capture vs. programming languages or assembler. I have read
> enough to know this is bad form but I still understand 74LSXX and
> would like to ease into topics like Verilog. Nothing I do requires
> more then a couple of 4 bit counters and maybe a six bit latch with a
> bit of glue logic.

Atmel have WinCUPL free on their web site, and that works fine from
16V8 up to ATF1508RE devices.

Their ATF15xx series are 5V, and ISP with a choice of parallel port or
USB JTAG programming.


For 16v8/22V10/ATF750 you will need a device programmer, but you can
get those cheap - or just skip to the PLCC44 ISP devices. (32/64
Macrocells)

With WinCUPL you can create test vectors, which allows a development
HW verify step, and also allows
Pgm/Vfy/Secure/VectorTest flows on the PLDs

-jg

Rick <r...@gmail.com> writes:

<snip>

>Looks like my best choice for a development platform would be some ISA
>slots, USB, serial, and printer ports which puts me somewhere back
>about the year 2000 vintage computer. Not really a problem since I
>have stuff on either side of that time period. If need be I can always
>get a PCI printer port or serial card.

	Not quite that bad, just a relatively more expensive server motherboard
(well except for the ISA slots). I have a quad core AMD machine with an 
ASUS M2N-LR server mother board which has 2 serial and a parallel port 
(although come to think of it I haven't tried that with a parallel programming
cable yet). Mostly I wanted the 2 PCIX slots (it also has a PCIE 16 lane) for
doing gigabit ethernet work (with FPGAs in fact :-)). Cost around $1500 
Canadian with 4 gigs of fast ram and dual quad core AMD processors case etc.
	Although at that point I think one of the USB progtamming cables may
be a better bet even at a couple of hundred ...

Peter