Hi All,

I'm speccing out a new windows PC that I'll use with Xilinx tools,
probably Webpack and Modelsim, and I'm looking for some advice to make
sure the tools will run fast. I know memory is important, but what
else? Also, what pitfalls should I watch out for?

I'm not sure how relevant this info is, but I'm probably going to
target something in the ballpark of a Virtex-5 LX50. Also, I'm
planning on getting a laptop because I'll need to travel quite a bit
with it.

Some specific questions:

- Have people had any problems with Windows 7? 32 bit or 64? Is it
useful to have Win 7 Pro so that I can use XP mode?
- Core 2 Duo vs i7?
- How important is cache size?
- How much memory should I get? Is 4GB enough?

Thanks!

-Tom

On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 09:24:27 -0800, Tom Kotwal
wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> I'm speccing out a new windows PC that I'll use with Xilinx tools,
> probably Webpack and Modelsim, and I'm looking for some advice to make
> sure the tools will run fast. I know memory is important, but what else?
> Also, what pitfalls should I watch out for?
> 
> I'm not sure how relevant this info is, but I'm probably going to target
> something in the ballpark of a Virtex-5 LX50. Also, I'm planning on
> getting a laptop because I'll need to travel quite a bit with it.
> 
> Some specific questions:
> 
> - Have people had any problems with Windows 7? 32 bit or 64? Is it
> useful to have Win 7 Pro so that I can use XP mode? - Core 2 Duo vs i7?
> - How important is cache size?
> - How much memory should I get? Is 4GB enough?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -Tom

For simulation cache size is very important. My benchmarking on Linux 
shows that NC simulations run about 10% faster clock for clock on a Core2 
with a 6M two level cache vs an iCore7 with a three level cache. The 
difference between a 6M Core2 and a 4M Core2 is even greater. For Xilinx 
place and routes the iCore7 is a little faster clock for clock.

One reason to get an iCore7 is that it can hold 12G of RAM at reasonable 
prices. The large members of the V5 family need more than 8G, the LX300 
uses 10G for example. If you are only using smaller FPGAs then 8G is 
fine. I wouldn't consider anything less than 8G these days. 

You also need a 64bit OS. If you must use Windows then get a 64 bit 
version. 

On Jan 7, 3:01=A0pm, General Schvantzkoph
<schvantzk...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 09:24:27 -0800, Tom Kotwal wrote:
> > Hi All,
>
> > I'm speccing out a new windows PC that I'll use with Xilinx tools,
> > probably Webpack and Modelsim, and I'm looking for some advice to make
> > sure the tools will run fast. I know memory is important, but what else=
?
> > Also, what pitfalls should I watch out for?
>
> > I'm not sure how relevant this info is, but I'm probably going to targe=
t
> > something in the ballpark of a Virtex-5 LX50. Also, I'm planning on
> > getting a laptop because I'll need to travel quite a bit with it.
>
> > Some specific questions:
>
> > - Have people had any problems with Windows 7? 32 bit or 64? Is it
> > useful to have Win 7 Pro so that I can use XP mode? - Core 2 Duo vs i7?
> > - How important is cache size?
> > - How much memory should I get? Is 4GB enough?
>
> > Thanks!
>
> > -Tom
>
> For simulation cache size is very important. My benchmarking on Linux
> shows that NC simulations run about 10% faster clock for clock on a Core2
> with a 6M two level cache vs an iCore7 with a three level cache. The
> difference between a 6M Core2 and a 4M Core2 is even greater. For Xilinx
> place and routes the iCore7 is a little faster clock for clock.
>
> One reason to get an iCore7 is that it can hold 12G of RAM at reasonable
> prices. The large members of the V5 family need more than 8G, the LX300
> uses 10G for example. If you are only using smaller FPGAs then 8G is
> fine. I wouldn't consider anything less than 8G these days.
>
> You also need a 64bit OS. If you must use Windows then get a 64 bit
> version.

I'm running LX85T and LX110T designs pretty comfortably in 32-bit
Windows XP.  Check with Xilinx before jumping into Windows 7, I don't
think the support is quite there yet.  Also WinXP has been around
long enough to run the older versions you'll need to support the
legacy devices.

If you're not a GUI-driver, and want raw performance you're
probably best off with a 64-bit Linux rather than Windows.  I've
seen many more bug reports on the Windows tool versions.  It may
just be that more people use them, but I think the general
consensus is that the best performance comes using Linux.  If
you need the notebook for typical office applications in
addition to the Xilinx stuff you may want to weigh that into
your OS choice, too.

Multiprocessor is nice for the ability to use the computer
while you're running synthesis, P&R, etc.  Also the multicore
CPU's usually have faster front-side buses and larger cache,
which makes the tools run faster.  Most of the processes
don't do enough disk access for the disk speed to be an
issue.  Just be sure your memory is big enough to avoid
a lot of paging.  4GB will really be more like 3 GB if you're
running 32-bit windows.

regards,
gabor

On Jan 7, 1:01=A0pm, General Schvantzkoph
<schvantzk...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> One reason to get an iCore7 is that it can hold 12G of RAM at reasonable
> prices. The large members of the V5 family need more than 8G, the LX300
> uses 10G for example. If you are only using smaller FPGAs then 8G is
> fine. I wouldn't consider anything less than 8G these days.
>
> You also need a 64bit OS. If you must use Windows then get a 64 bit
> version.

Interesting - what version of ISE are you basing this on? I'm using
10.1.3 to build against a V5 SX95T in only 4G on a Linux X86_64 system
and not running into any memory issues.

Eric

On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 13:33:43 -0800, emeb wrote:

> On Jan 7, 1:01 pm, General Schvantzkoph <schvantzk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> One reason to get an iCore7 is that it can hold 12G of RAM at
>> reasonable prices. The large members of the V5 family need more than
>> 8G, the LX300 uses 10G for example. If you are only using smaller FPGAs
>> then 8G is fine. I wouldn't consider anything less than 8G these days.
>>
>> You also need a 64bit OS. If you must use Windows then get a 64 bit
>> version.
> 
> Interesting - what version of ISE are you basing this on? I'm using
> 10.1.3 to build against a V5 SX95T in only 4G on a Linux X86_64 system
> and not running into any memory issues.
> 
> Eric

The SX95 is substantially smaller then the LX330 so it's entirely 
possible that it will run in 4G. My memory usage number is using ISE 11.1 
on Fedora 12. I seem to remember that it was even higher with 10.1. In 
any event it makes no sense having less than 8G these days, RAM is cheap. 
Most people don't use the biggest FPGAs, I have an LX330 board that I use 
for ASIC prototyping which is why I've run into the memory limits.

"whygee" <y...@yg.yg> wrote in message
news:hi5896$h18$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> hi,
>
> Tom Kotwal wrote:
>> - Core 2 Duo vs i7?
> depends if you can find a laptop with it.
> It seems to be quite worth it but the i7 is much
> more expensive... It may have changed since the
> last time I've looked,

This month edition of PCPro (UK edition but I believe they use the same articles 
worldwide) tested 12 of the latest laptops and the winner is the Dell Studio 15 
which comes with a 1.6GHz Core I7-720QM. According to the article the £653 (ex. 
VAT) Dell Studio beats many £2000 high-end Core2 laptops in performance. 
Unfortunately the battery life is not that great but then again I don't think 
you will be running a P&R session at the airport :-)

Hans.
www.ht-lab.com



Intel has just announced
> i7 derivatives (i5 and i3 from memory, look /.)
> for desktops and laptops.
>
>> - How important is cache size?
> very. So choose the laptop with the largest L2 & L3,
> over raw speed : being memory access dependent,
> many P&R algos will stall the CPU...
> Also those algos are difficult to parallelize
> so don't waste money on a quad-core,
> one core will be busy with P&R while the other
> will remain for the OS GUI.
>
> Oh, I think that some Toshiba have 2 (two !)
> disk drive slots. Might be interesting in RAID :-)
>
>> - How much memory should I get? Is 4GB enough?
> should be, add some swap too.
> Check that your OS supports as much (well, the recent
> kernels support at least 64GB but MS's marketing department has
> crippled actual /use/ of detected RAM, see a past /. article).
> But FAST memory and several channels are recommended.
> Bandwidth and access time are to be preferred.
>
> With small designs on Actel, I have seen that I don't
> consume as much memory as I thought. Like 500M peak or so...
> Vista consumes about as much :-D
> Now I have not succeeded in running it under Linux
> but I expect much more comfort.
>
> ...
>
> I'm currently going the other route with a /small/ ACER ONE netbook
> (Atom dual-thread CPU, XP and single DDR2 slot upgraded to 2GB)
> so I can S&P&R in travel. I wonder what the results will be,
> compared to the somewhat bulkier Toshiba with a Core2
> at the same CPU speed. Price and size have been halved, however :-)
>
> But given that most of the time is lost clicking the same dialogs
> all the time, and that those damn antiviruses/toolbars/indexers/GUI widgets
> waste RAM&cycles, I don't expect a big difference...
> The much smaller size and the lower price make it more like
> a commodity, something replaceable and that can be carried along...
>
>> Thanks!
> happy hacking,
>
>> -Tom
> yg
>
> -- 
> http://ygdes.com / http://yasep.org 

HT-Lab wrote:
> "whygee" <y...@yg.yg> wrote in message
news:hi5896$h18$1...@speranza.aioe.or=
g...
>> hi,
>>
>> Tom Kotwal wrote:
>>> - Core 2 Duo vs i7?
>> depends if you can find a laptop with it.
>> It seems to be quite worth it but the i7 is much
>> more expensive... It may have changed since the
>> last time I've looked,
>=20
> This month edition of PCPro (UK edition but I believe they use the same=
 articles=20
> worldwide) tested 12 of the latest laptops and the winner is the Dell S=
tudio 15=20
> which comes with a 1.6GHz Core I7-720QM. According to the article the =A3=
653 (ex.=20
> VAT) Dell Studio beats many =A32000 high-end Core2 laptops in performan=
ce.=20
> Unfortunately the battery life is not that great but then again I don't=
 think=20
> you will be running a P&R session at the airport :-)

OK so there are i7 laptops that don't cost an arm and a leg, great :-)
But then, the battery life is more important for me when i'm "away"
(like, a couple of weeks, once a year or so...) because electricity
can become very scarce. I spend maybe several minutes in P&R but
I spend much more time ckicking my way through those damned dialogs...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2490/3840160076_f178850077_b.jpg
yes it's me under the tree, next to the tent, with 2 laptops...
I also use them in the coach/bus (24h trip) so capacity is critical ;-)
I'll try to hack a big LiIon pack for the laptops and
I even plan to bring several solar panels next year :-)
Whatever/However it looks, that's my most productive period
in the year. I assume that the lack of Internet access is
somewhat related to this increase... :-)

wow, things have evolved so much in 10 or 15 years...

> Hans.
> www.ht-lab.com
yg

--=20
http://ygdes.com / http://yasep.org

On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 13:33:43 -0800, emeb wrote:

> On Jan 7, 1:01 pm, General Schvantzkoph <schvantzk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> One reason to get an iCore7 is that it can hold 12G of RAM at
>> reasonable prices. The large members of the V5 family need more than
>> 8G, the LX300 uses 10G for example. If you are only using smaller FPGAs
>> then 8G is fine. I wouldn't consider anything less than 8G these days.
>>
>> You also need a 64bit OS. If you must use Windows then get a 64 bit
>> version.
> 
> Interesting - what version of ISE are you basing this on? I'm using
> 10.1.3 to build against a V5 SX95T in only 4G on a Linux X86_64 system
> and not running into any memory issues.
> 
> Eric

Xilinx also has a memory recommendation page. It's quite useful if you 
plan to dimension a pc for a specific device.

http://www.xilinx.com/ise/products/memory.htm

-- 
Regards,
Maik H.
<insert_my_first_name_here>@elektronensturm.de

Thanks everyone for all the good advice. Its been
a big help. A Dell
Studio 15 had been at the top of my list already, and you've helped me
to confirm that it will do the job nicely.

The only remaining question I have is how Xilinx tools are on Windows
7. ISE doesn't officially support it, but I would imagine that it
would still work. Does anyone have any personal experience with this?

Thanks again.

-Tom