All,

Apologies for the cross-post, I know a lot of people who deal with
FPGAs are also experts with PCBs, stack-ups, high-speed layout, hoping
for some good ideas from both groups.  I'm not an expert on board
design or electronics, but I'm trying to do things right from the
start...

My issue in a nut shell:  How can I properly prevent ground-loops from
external connections that interface to my board?  I receive several
digital signals streams from two to four external boards, single-
ended, ~5 Mbps, almost zero-balanced.  My board has sensitive analog
and audio/video and I'd like to avoid the possibility of ground-loops,
60 Hz hum, etc.

I know of three methods to isolate and I list the methods and my
thoughts.

1.  I can use a capacitor in-series with each input signal and level-
shift it back so my digital ICs will properly trigger and keep the
ext_GND isolated from my sys_GND.  I have tested this and it's
reliable for my configuration.

But!  I'm very worried about EMI and return currents.  If I use a
capacitor to couple the external signal in AND I don't connect
ext_GND(s) to my sys_GND, I fear that the return current from the
input signal will see an impedance discontinuity and cause me MORE EMI
headaches.  I reason that the current should flow in a loop and while
the capacitor isolates my two systems, the return current will still
have to go back to the original source and since my GNDs are
discontiguous, I have a high-impedance return (maybe through free
space) and this will couple more noise into my system.

2.  I can use an isolation transformer (1:1) and a capacitor on the
input side to avoid saturating the core (strip DC) and use a cap on
the output & restore the DC.

I wonder if the capacitance between windings, other parasitics and EM
"leakage" however won't end up defeating the purpose of isolation and
will end up coupling noise from the external circuits into my system.
Since my signals are single-ended I don't have a differential receiver
to reject the common-mode noise either.

I'm also uncertain if the return current has a path, but based on my
recollection of transformers, the load impedance is reflected back to
the source, so there is a "path" and both sides are coupled together.

3.  I can use a digital isolator (NVE, ADI) and have it straddle the
external input block and my digital system.

The issue here is the need for power on the external input side that
would have to be isolated from the digital side.  I also wonder, since
the NVE/ADI parts end up using magnetic isolation techniques, will
they end up broadcasting any EM?

Thank you!
Sam.

On Mar 2, 5:14=A0am, digitaljanitor
<b7grabn...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
> All,
>
> Apologies for the cross-post, I know a lot of people who deal with
> FPGAs are also experts with PCBs, stack-ups, high-speed layout, hoping
> for some good ideas from both groups. =A0I'm not an expert on board
> design or electronics, but I'm trying to do things right from the
> start...
>
> My issue in a nut shell: =A0How can I properly prevent ground-loops from
> external connections that interface to my board? =A0I receive several
> digital signals streams from two to four external boards, single-
> ended, ~5 Mbps, almost zero-balanced. =A0My board has sensitive analog
> and audio/video and I'd like to avoid the possibility of ground-loops,
> 60 Hz hum, etc.
>
> I know of three methods to isolate and I list the methods and my
> thoughts.
>
> 1. =A0I can use a capacitor in-series with each input signal and level-
> shift it back so my digital ICs will properly trigger and keep the
> ext_GND isolated from my sys_GND. =A0I have tested this and it's
> reliable for my configuration.
>
> But! =A0I'm very worried about EMI and return currents. =A0If I use a
> capacitor to couple the external signal in AND I don't connect
> ext_GND(s) to my sys_GND, I fear that the return current from the
> input signal will see an impedance discontinuity and cause me MORE EMI
> headaches. =A0I reason that the current should flow in a loop and while
> the capacitor isolates my two systems, the return current will still
> have to go back to the original source and since my GNDs are
> discontiguous, I have a high-impedance return (maybe through free
> space) and this will couple more noise into my system.
>
> 2. =A0I can use an isolation transformer (1:1) and a capacitor on the
> input side to avoid saturating the core (strip DC) and use a cap on
> the output & restore the DC.
>
> I wonder if the capacitance between windings, other parasitics and EM
> "leakage" however won't end up defeating the purpose of isolation and
> will end up coupling noise from the external circuits into my system.
> Since my signals are single-ended I don't have a differential receiver
> to reject the common-mode noise either.
>
> I'm also uncertain if the return current has a path, but based on my
> recollection of transformers, the load impedance is reflected back to
> the source, so there is a "path" and both sides are coupled together.
>
> 3. =A0I can use a digital isolator (NVE, ADI) and have it straddle the
> external input block and my digital system.
>
> The issue here is the need for power on the external input side that
> would have to be isolated from the digital side. =A0I also wonder, since
> the NVE/ADI parts end up using magnetic isolation techniques, will
> they end up broadcasting any EM?
>
> Thank you!
> Sam.

I guess my first question is to figure out if any of this is
overkill.  When you say you have signals coming from "external"
boards, do you mean a separate chassis?  If the boards are in the same
case, then proper grounding techniques should do the job.

If you are sure that you need this sort of isolation there is a third
choice, optical isolation.  5 Mbps is not beyond the speed of
optoisolators.  A quick search turns up parts rated up to 50 Mbps.
The input devices require no special circuitry and output devices
simply require a power supply that is separate and isolated since this
becomes the only path for conducted noise.

I guess my real concern is that if you are so worried about the return
current and coupled EMI from the external digital signals, why don't
you put the digital electronics on a separate card?  That is the best
way to provide proper isolation from the digital noise... at least the
best first step.

Rick

Please clarify exactly what type of signals you
wish to isolate.

Analog Video?

Digial Video?

Analog  - AC with DC component?  just AC?

Other

There are many ways to isolate...for particular type of signals... so please 
clarify exactly what type of signals.

Yes  -for digital you might try some of the AD iCoupler isolators (some even 
pass power 50mA to the isolated side).

Joe 

"digitaljanitor" <b...@sneakemail.com> schreef in bericht 
news:5...@b9g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> All,
>
> Apologies for the cross-post, I know a lot of people who deal with
> FPGAs are also experts with PCBs, stack-ups, high-speed layout, hoping
> for some good ideas from both groups.  I'm not an expert on board
> design or electronics, but I'm trying to do things right from the
> start...
>
> My issue in a nut shell:  How can I properly prevent ground-loops from
> external connections that interface to my board?  I receive several
> digital signals streams from two to four external boards, single-
> ended, ~5 Mbps, almost zero-balanced.  My board has sensitive analog
> and audio/video and I'd like to avoid the possibility of ground-loops,
> 60 Hz hum, etc.
>
> I know of three methods to isolate and I list the methods and my
> thoughts.
>
> 1.  I can use a capacitor in-series with each input signal and level-
> shift it back so my digital ICs will properly trigger and keep the
> ext_GND isolated from my sys_GND.  I have tested this and it's
> reliable for my configuration.
>
> But!  I'm very worried about EMI and return currents.  If I use a
> capacitor to couple the external signal in AND I don't connect
> ext_GND(s) to my sys_GND, I fear that the return current from the
> input signal will see an impedance discontinuity and cause me MORE EMI
> headaches.  I reason that the current should flow in a loop and while
> the capacitor isolates my two systems, the return current will still
> have to go back to the original source and since my GNDs are
> discontiguous, I have a high-impedance return (maybe through free
> space) and this will couple more noise into my system.
>
> 2.  I can use an isolation transformer (1:1) and a capacitor on the
> input side to avoid saturating the core (strip DC) and use a cap on
> the output & restore the DC.
>
> I wonder if the capacitance between windings, other parasitics and EM
> "leakage" however won't end up defeating the purpose of isolation and
> will end up coupling noise from the external circuits into my system.
> Since my signals are single-ended I don't have a differential receiver
> to reject the common-mode noise either.
>
> I'm also uncertain if the return current has a path, but based on my
> recollection of transformers, the load impedance is reflected back to
> the source, so there is a "path" and both sides are coupled together.
>
> 3.  I can use a digital isolator (NVE, ADI) and have it straddle the
> external input block and my digital system.
>
> The issue here is the need for power on the external input side that
> would have to be isolated from the digital side.  I also wonder, since
> the NVE/ADI parts end up using magnetic isolation techniques, will
> they end up broadcasting any EM?
>
> Thank you!
> Sam.

I used to apply optocouplers. For real long lines I even switched to 
glassfiber.

petrus bitbyter 

rickman wrote:
> On Mar 2, 5:14 am, digitaljanitor <b7grabn...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> Apologies for the cross-post, I know a lot of people who deal with
>> FPGAs are also experts with PCBs, stack-ups, high-speed layout, hoping
>> for some good ideas from both groups.  I'm not an expert on board
>> design or electronics, but I'm trying to do things right from the
>> start...
>>
>> My issue in a nut shell:  How can I properly prevent ground-loops from
>> external connections that interface to my board?  I receive several
>> digital signals streams from two to four external boards, single-
>> ended, ~5 Mbps, almost zero-balanced.  My board has sensitive analog
>> and audio/video and I'd like to avoid the possibility of ground-loops,
>> 60 Hz hum, etc.
>>
>> I know of three methods to isolate and I list the methods and my
>> thoughts.
>>
>> 1.  I can use a capacitor in-series with each input signal and level-
>> shift it back so my digital ICs will properly trigger and keep the
>> ext_GND isolated from my sys_GND.  I have tested this and it's
>> reliable for my configuration.
>>
>> But!  I'm very worried about EMI and return currents.  If I use a
>> capacitor to couple the external signal in AND I don't connect
>> ext_GND(s) to my sys_GND, I fear that the return current from the
>> input signal will see an impedance discontinuity and cause me MORE EMI
>> headaches.  I reason that the current should flow in a loop and while
>> the capacitor isolates my two systems, the return current will still
>> have to go back to the original source and since my GNDs are
>> discontiguous, I have a high-impedance return (maybe through free
>> space) and this will couple more noise into my system.
>>
>> 2.  I can use an isolation transformer (1:1) and a capacitor on the
>> input side to avoid saturating the core (strip DC) and use a cap on
>> the output & restore the DC.
>>
>> I wonder if the capacitance between windings, other parasitics and EM
>> "leakage" however won't end up defeating the purpose of isolation and
>> will end up coupling noise from the external circuits into my system.
>> Since my signals are single-ended I don't have a differential receiver
>> to reject the common-mode noise either.
>>
>> I'm also uncertain if the return current has a path, but based on my
>> recollection of transformers, the load impedance is reflected back to
>> the source, so there is a "path" and both sides are coupled together.
>>
>> 3.  I can use a digital isolator (NVE, ADI) and have it straddle the
>> external input block and my digital system.
>>
>> The issue here is the need for power on the external input side that
>> would have to be isolated from the digital side.  I also wonder, since
>> the NVE/ADI parts end up using magnetic isolation techniques, will
>> they end up broadcasting any EM?
>>
>> Thank you!
>> Sam.
> 
> I guess my first question is to figure out if any of this is
> overkill.  When you say you have signals coming from "external"
> boards, do you mean a separate chassis?  If the boards are in the same
> case, then proper grounding techniques should do the job.

Not necessarily, depending on the noise sensitivity of the sensitive 
bits and the level of noise elsewhere.  Great Big Ground Planes 
significantly reduce ground loop effects, but they don't eliminate them.

> If you are sure that you need this sort of isolation there is a third
> choice, optical isolation.  5 Mbps is not beyond the speed of
> optoisolators.  A quick search turns up parts rated up to 50 Mbps.
> The input devices require no special circuitry and output devices
> simply require a power supply that is separate and isolated since this
> becomes the only path for conducted noise.
> 
> I guess my real concern is that if you are so worried about the return
> current and coupled EMI from the external digital signals, why don't
> you put the digital electronics on a separate card?  That is the best
> way to provide proper isolation from the digital noise... at least the
> best first step.

If it can be done, indeed.

-- 
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

digitaljanitor wrote:
> All,
> 
> Apologies for the cross-post, I know a lot of people who deal with
> FPGAs are also experts with PCBs, stack-ups, high-speed layout, hoping
> for some good ideas from both groups.  I'm not an expert on board
> design or electronics, but I'm trying to do things right from the
> start...
> 
> My issue in a nut shell:  How can I properly prevent ground-loops from
> external connections that interface to my board?  I receive several
> digital signals streams from two to four external boards, single-
> ended, ~5 Mbps, almost zero-balanced.  My board has sensitive analog
> and audio/video and I'd like to avoid the possibility of ground-loops,
> 60 Hz hum, etc.
> 
> I know of three methods to isolate and I list the methods and my
> thoughts.
> 
> 1.  I can use a capacitor in-series with each input signal and level-
> shift it back so my digital ICs will properly trigger and keep the
> ext_GND isolated from my sys_GND.  I have tested this and it's
> reliable for my configuration.
> 
  -- snip --

Caps will block DC ground noise, but will let the high frequency ground 
noise come sailing through unimpeded.

> 2.  I can use an isolation transformer (1:1) and a capacitor on the
> input side to avoid saturating the core (strip DC) and use a cap on
> the output & restore the DC.
> 
> I wonder if the capacitance between windings, other parasitics and EM
> "leakage" however won't end up defeating the purpose of isolation and
> will end up coupling noise from the external circuits into my system.
> Since my signals are single-ended I don't have a differential receiver
> to reject the common-mode noise either.

An ideal transformer won't provide a noise path into your board.  Your 
goal in using a transformer would be to understand just how much 
coupling you can stand, and see if you can find a transformer that stays 
below that threshold.

> I'm also uncertain if the return current has a path, but based on my
> recollection of transformers, the load impedance is reflected back to
> the source, so there is a "path" and both sides are coupled together.

The signal return path would be through that signal's local ground.

> 3.  I can use a digital isolator (NVE, ADI) and have it straddle the
> external input block and my digital system.
> 
> The issue here is the need for power on the external input side that
> would have to be isolated from the digital side.  I also wonder, since
> the NVE/ADI parts end up using magnetic isolation techniques, will
> they end up broadcasting any EM?

I doubt that a digital isolator would add much EMI.  Yes, you'd need to 
power up your analog, but that could be done with a little switching 
supply that's transformer coupled.

-- 
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

digitaljanitor wrote:
> All,
> 
> Apologies for the cross-post, I know a lot of people who deal with
> FPGAs are also experts with PCBs, stack-ups, high-speed layout, hoping
> for some good ideas from both groups.  I'm not an expert on board
> design or electronics, but I'm trying to do things right from the
> start...
> 
> My issue in a nut shell:  How can I properly prevent ground-loops from
> external connections that interface to my board?  I receive several
> digital signals streams from two to four external boards, single-
> ended, ~5 Mbps, almost zero-balanced.  My board has sensitive analog
> and audio/video and I'd like to avoid the possibility of ground-loops,
> 60 Hz hum, etc.
> 
> I know of three methods to isolate and I list the methods and my
> thoughts.
> 
> 1.  I can use a capacitor in-series with each input signal and level-
> shift it back so my digital ICs will properly trigger and keep the
> ext_GND isolated from my sys_GND.  I have tested this and it's
> reliable for my configuration.
> 
> But!  I'm very worried about EMI and return currents.  If I use a
> capacitor to couple the external signal in AND I don't connect
> ext_GND(s) to my sys_GND, I fear that the return current from the
> input signal will see an impedance discontinuity and cause me MORE EMI
> headaches.  I reason that the current should flow in a loop and while
> the capacitor isolates my two systems, the return current will still
> have to go back to the original source and since my GNDs are
> discontiguous, I have a high-impedance return (maybe through free
> space) and this will couple more noise into my system.
> 

Capacitive coupling doesn't do much for you here, it doesn't cut the 
return path. You could run them through common mode chokes but with too 
many lines that can get old.


> 2.  I can use an isolation transformer (1:1) and a capacitor on the
> input side to avoid saturating the core (strip DC) and use a cap on
> the output & restore the DC.
> 
> I wonder if the capacitance between windings, other parasitics and EM
> "leakage" however won't end up defeating the purpose of isolation and
> will end up coupling noise from the external circuits into my system.
> Since my signals are single-ended I don't have a differential receiver
> to reject the common-mode noise either.
> 

With a transformer your signal isn't single-ended anymore.

<scratching head>


> I'm also uncertain if the return current has a path, but based on my
> recollection of transformers, the load impedance is reflected back to
> the source, so there is a "path" and both sides are coupled together.
> 

A good transformer will send nearly all common mode noise and 
ground-conducted stuff out to pasture, it's usually the way to go. The 
challenge is to find one that's good, cheap and most of all available. 
LAN transformers could be great candidates. You can get them in 2-packs, 
4-packs and even with extra common mode chokes integrated.


> 3.  I can use a digital isolator (NVE, ADI) and have it straddle the
> external input block and my digital system.
> 
> The issue here is the need for power on the external input side that
> would have to be isolated from the digital side.  I also wonder, since
> the NVE/ADI parts end up using magnetic isolation techniques, will
> they end up broadcasting any EM?
> 

If you have enough amplitude optocouplers are also an option and you 
don't have to worry about any DC restoration. One of my favorites for 
faster stuff is the CNW137 but that's because I work in hi-rel and 
medical and they come in gullwing wide body:

http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0940EN

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

digitaljanitor wrote:
> All,
> 
> Apologies for the cross-post, I know a lot of people who deal with
> FPGAs are also experts with PCBs, stack-ups, high-speed layout, hoping
> for some good ideas from both groups.  I'm not an expert on board
> design or electronics, but I'm trying to do things right from the
> start...
> 
> My issue in a nut shell:  How can I properly prevent ground-loops from
> external connections that interface to my board?  I receive several
> digital signals streams from two to four external boards, single-
> ended, ~5 Mbps, almost zero-balanced.  My board has sensitive analog
> and audio/video and I'd like to avoid the possibility of ground-loops,
> 60 Hz hum, etc.
> 
> I know of three methods to isolate and I list the methods and my
> thoughts.
> 
> 1.  I can use a capacitor in-series with each input signal and level-
> shift it back so my digital ICs will properly trigger and keep the
> ext_GND isolated from my sys_GND.  I have tested this and it's
> reliable for my configuration.
> 
> But!  I'm very worried about EMI and return currents.  If I use a
> capacitor to couple the external signal in AND I don't connect
> ext_GND(s) to my sys_GND, I fear that the return current from the
> input signal will see an impedance discontinuity and cause me MORE EMI
> headaches.  I reason that the current should flow in a loop and while
> the capacitor isolates my two systems, the return current will still
> have to go back to the original source and since my GNDs are
> discontiguous, I have a high-impedance return (maybe through free
> space) and this will couple more noise into my system.
> 
> 2.  I can use an isolation transformer (1:1) and a capacitor on the
> input side to avoid saturating the core (strip DC) and use a cap on
> the output & restore the DC.
> 
> I wonder if the capacitance between windings, other parasitics and EM
> "leakage" however won't end up defeating the purpose of isolation and
> will end up coupling noise from the external circuits into my system.
> Since my signals are single-ended I don't have a differential receiver
> to reject the common-mode noise either.
> 
> I'm also uncertain if the return current has a path, but based on my
> recollection of transformers, the load impedance is reflected back to
> the source, so there is a "path" and both sides are coupled together.
> 
> 3.  I can use a digital isolator (NVE, ADI) and have it straddle the
> external input block and my digital system.
> 
> The issue here is the need for power on the external input side that
> would have to be isolated from the digital side.  I also wonder, since
> the NVE/ADI parts end up using magnetic isolation techniques, will
> they end up broadcasting any EM?
> 
> Thank you!
> Sam.

A good way to do this if you have control of all the spigots is to use 
differential signaling (RS-422 would be adequate at 5MHz), and don't 
connect the signal ground to the board ground.  That way everything 
stays referenced to the same ground, but you're not providing any low 
impedance ground paths to your board's signal ports.  You can't do this, 
but you can try to get the same effect.

You say your signal is "almost zero biased" -- what do you mean?  Do you 
mean that it has just about as many ones as zeros?  Can you count on 
this, or do you sometimes have long stretches of zeros or ones?  How long?

At any rate, you should be able to feed your signal into a high speed 
comparator or line receiver, with a suitable local reference for your 
signal's 'midway' point:

                               VCC
                                +
                          ___   |
                      .--|___|--'
                      |
                      |      |\
                      o------|-\       sig out
                      |      |  >----------o
    sig in o----------)------|+/
                      |      |/
                 ||   |
           o-----||---o
  sig return     ||   |
                     .-.
                     | |
                     | |
                     '-'
                      |
                      |
                     ===
                     GND
(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)

This circuit assumes that your grounds are well referenced at DC, and 
that you can stand some high-impedance coupling.  It couples any 
high-speed ground bounce to the comparator input to keep your noise 
margins up, but it somewhat isolates your board's ground from the rest 
of the system ground.

Depending on what you have, the comparator can me a regular high-speed 
comparator, or something like an RS-485 receiver (terminate to the 
signal return, _not_ to the board ground!), or other suitable line 
receiver.  Just read the specifications carefully, 'cause you'll be 
'misusing' just about anything called a 'line receiver' -- you want to 
make sure that you're maintaining isolation and providing the receiver 
with enough margins.

-- 
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com