Hi,

I'm interested in learning more about FPGAs in a hands on way. Can
anyone recommend an inexpensive set of tools to get started with? My
wishlist is: I'd like to develop on Linux, I'd like to spend no more
than a few hundred $ on a starter kit, I'd like to learn using the
tools and up-to-date skills that are relevant to the more high end set
ups available. Which is better to start with, Xilinx or Altera or
something else? Is there a choice between Verilog and VHDL to be made,
or can both be tried out just as easily?

At the moment I am not too bothered about specific applications, just
if I can get some hands on experience, whatever i/o ports are
available on whatever board I use, I will think of some little project
to try out using them.

Thanks for your recommendations.

Rupert

r...@googlemail.com
<r...@googlemail.com> wrote:
 
> I'm interested in learning more about FPGAs in a hands on way. Can
> anyone recommend an inexpensive set of tools to get started with? My
> wishlist is: I'd like to develop on Linux, I'd like to spend no more
> than a few hundred $ on a starter kit, I'd like to learn using the
> tools and up-to-date skills that are relevant to the more high end set
> ups available. 

There are many starter kit boards available.  Both X and A have
free versions of the software to use with such boards (or separately).

> Which is better to start with, Xilinx or Altera or something else? 

Both work, some use one some the other.

> Is there a choice between Verilog and VHDL to be made,
> or can both be tried out just as easily?

If you have done digital logic design, even at the freshman
level wiring up TTL chips, you shouldn't have too hard a time
with either one.

As was suggested to me and I still believe, C programmers should
learn verilog, others might prefer VHDL.

Not that there is any connection between the languages, or in
the way there are used, but it is deeper than that.  VHDL tends
to be wordy, where the same idea in verilog takes much less writing.

-- glen

On 08/17/2010 10:07 AM,
r...@googlemail.com wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm interested in learning more about FPGAs in a hands on way. Can
> anyone recommend an inexpensive set of tools to get started with? My
> wishlist is: I'd like to develop on Linux, I'd like to spend no more
> than a few hundred $ on a starter kit, I'd like to learn using the
> tools and up-to-date skills that are relevant to the more high end set
> ups available. Which is better to start with, Xilinx or Altera or
> something else? Is there a choice between Verilog and VHDL to be made,
> or can both be tried out just as easily?
>
> At the moment I am not too bothered about specific applications, just
> if I can get some hands on experience, whatever i/o ports are
> available on whatever board I use, I will think of some little project
> to try out using them.

<Disclaimer>

I'm not really an FPGA guy: I'm a systems engineer with formal training 
in math and analog circuits, who's been designing control and signal 
processing algorithms for FPGA, embedded processors and DSP chips for 
years.  But while I've also implemented those algorithms on the 
processors, there have always been excellent digital folks on tap to 
implement my algorithms in FPGAs, and the projects have always been 
cutting-edge enough that no sensible person (including me) wanted a 
relative junior mucking about in the Verilog code.

Since I've started my business I have done two projects: one (Verilog) 
because the customer knew me and I had just started freelancing, so I 
gave him a deep discount over my usual rate to learn FPGA stuff; the 
other (VHDL) because I developed a control algorithm for the customer, 
and when they saw how well it worked, how complex it was, and how busy 
they were they decided that it made sense for me to do the digital 
design for it.

So I'm kind of a really, really good amateur at this.

</Disclaimer>

I just checked Xilinx development board prices on DigiKey -- they look 
pretty reasonable.  For that matter, I have a Spartan 3 development 
board that I'd let go for a song -- but I wouldn't let you have the 
download cable, and that's over half the value of the thing at this 
point.  You may want to check on eBay -- I bet there are obsolete devel 
boards there, too, for cheap.

Xilinx ISE version 11.1 works fine on my installation of Ubuntu Lucid. 
I had to build the driver for the old parallel cable I had lying around 
from the last time that I did FPGA work, but my understanding is that 
this isn't such an issue with the new USB cables.

Look to market share: I think Xilinx has the most parts out there, 
Altera second, and everyone else third.

VHDL and Verilog are both about the same amount of effort to step up to, 
but they definitely have different flavors.  Designer's use of VHDL or 
Verilog seems to vary by region -- Verilog came out of civilian practice 
and is big on the west coast*, VHDL came out of military practice (it 
intentionally inherits several features from ADA) and is big on the east 
coast.  I have no clue what you'd find in Detroit or Austin (or London), 
etc..

So you may want to poll your local companies, to see what they use, and 
let that guide your choice of language to learn.  Whichever one you use, 
keep in mind that the biggest thing you're doing is learning how to 
envision a physical logic implementation in your head, then write it out 
in textual form.  That's going to be the same whether you do Verilog or 
VHDL (or SystemC); the language itself is just a means to do the final 
step, and isn't the most important part of the process.

* In spite of living on the west coast I think I prefer VHDL -- I can 
certainly see that its easier to write well-structured code, even if my 
current effort is a snarled-up mess.

-- 

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Hi,

I've recently started FPGA development after doing a little work with 
CPLDs in 2007.

After much pondering, the set-up I plumped for the following, which 
should not be considered a direct recommendation:

1. Xilinx Spartan 3A-DSP board (HW-SD1800A-DSP-SB-UNI-G)

Xilinx quote $600 for this,  it set me back about 350 GBP in the UK.  I 
chose it primarily because I'm working in a DSP environment.  Other 
Spartan boards have more peripherals (keyboard support, USB, etc) but 
fewer on-chip resources for around the same price.

Note that some boards have built-in USB programmers and others do not.  
This one doesn't.

2. "PC-3 clone" parallel port programmer.

This was about 5 GBP from eBay and has the same schematic as Xilinx's 
(obsolete) PC-3 programmer.

It needed electrical modifications to work with the development board's 
2.5V JTAG interface.  Nothing major -- just bypassing a diode here or 
there and changing capacitor values to allow sufficient rise time to the 
relatively high thresholds.  It works pretty solidly now.  Official 
programmers are very expensive, but faster and better supported.

3. Xilinx ISE Webpack

This is a free and functional but somewhat crippled version of the ISE 
suite.  I have posted recently about the lack of regard Xilinx apparently 
has for VHDL as a language and the workarounds and hacks that may be 
necessary.  I can't recommend ISE but I've not used any alternatives.

My own motivation was the Linux support which is, admittedly, quite good 
and apparently lacking in Altera's offerings.

However, getting the programmer working required a third-party wrapper:

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.fpga/msg/2dfa36541174a4f2

To clarify, by "crippled" I mean that device support is generally limited 
to FPGAs found on pre-built demo boards.  Also, the ISE simulator will 
artificially slow itself down on larger designs which I have found pretty 
annoying.

4. VHDL

My choice of VHDL was historical.  The VHDL/Verilog debate (flamewar) is 
covered thoroughly elsewhere.  I came from a background of electronic 
hardware design and assembler/C programming and I'm of the opinion that 
VHDL's steeper learning curve is worth its subsequent flexibility.

Software suites generally support both anyway.



A hands-on approach is commendable but in my experience I'd had the board 
for a couple of weeks before I was happy enough with the simulations to 
start programming it.  Factor this in if you begin to think about 
potential applications -- particularly if requirements may change during 
development.

In any event, good luck!


Andrew
0xADF

On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:07:45 -0700 (PDT),
r...@googlemail.com wrote:

>I'm interested in learning more about FPGAs

Wow.  I think this thread reminds me why it's still 
kinda nice to hang out on comp.arch.fpga (and 
comp.lang.vhdl, .verilog).

You get three seriously expert people, with distinctly 
different viewpoints and distinctly different positions, 
each giving a clearly expressed and nuanced take on
a bunch of issues (X vs A, Verilog vs VHDL) that 
could so easily degenerate into a schoolyard scrap.

And the OP gets spot-on advice too.

Hard to beat.  Thanks to all the contributors for
their time and their generously shared expertise.
-- 
Jonathan Bromley

On 08/17/2010 12:43 PM, Jonathan Bromley wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:07:45 -0700 (PDT),
> r...@googlemail.com wrote:
>
>> I'm interested in learning more about FPGAs
>
> Wow.  I think this thread reminds me why it's still
> kinda nice to hang out on comp.arch.fpga (and
> comp.lang.vhdl, .verilog).
>
> You get three seriously expert people, with distinctly
> different viewpoints and distinctly different positions,
> each giving a clearly expressed and nuanced take on
> a bunch of issues (X vs A, Verilog vs VHDL) that
> could so easily degenerate into a schoolyard scrap.

Schoolyard scrap?  Oh dang -- I forgot that part!

YOU'RE ALL WRONG -- EVEN THAT WESCOTT GUY!

The _only_ language to use for HDL is SystemFourth!  And the best logic 
to put it onto is mine, if only those dingbat venture capitalists would 
give me the time of day so I can start my company!

So there.

-- 

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On 08/17/2010 12:50 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
> On 08/17/2010 12:43 PM, Jonathan Bromley wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:07:45 -0700 (PDT),
>> r...@googlemail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I'm interested in learning more about FPGAs
>>
>> Wow. I think this thread reminds me why it's still
>> kinda nice to hang out on comp.arch.fpga (and
>> comp.lang.vhdl, .verilog).
>>
>> You get three seriously expert people, with distinctly
>> different viewpoints and distinctly different positions,
>> each giving a clearly expressed and nuanced take on
>> a bunch of issues (X vs A, Verilog vs VHDL) that
>> could so easily degenerate into a schoolyard scrap.
>
> Schoolyard scrap? Oh dang -- I forgot that part!
>
> YOU'RE ALL WRONG -- EVEN THAT WESCOTT GUY!
>
> The _only_ language to use for HDL is SystemFourth! And the best logic
> to put it onto is mine, if only those dingbat venture capitalists would
> give me the time of day so I can start my company!
>
> So there.

SystemCOBAL if it's for a bank teller machine, of course.

-- 

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On 8/17/2010 10:07 AM,
r...@googlemail.com wrote:

> I'm interested in learning more about FPGAs in a hands on way. Can
> anyone recommend an inexpensive set of tools to get started with? My
> wishlist is: I'd like to develop on Linux, I'd like to spend no more
> than a few hundred $ on a starter kit, I'd like to learn using the
> tools and up-to-date skills that are relevant to the more high end set
> ups available. Which is better to start with, Xilinx or Altera or
> something else? Is there a choice between Verilog and VHDL to be made,
> or can both be tried out just as easily?

https://www.altera.com/download/software/quartus-ii-we
is free and now has a usable version of modelsim for vhdl and verilog.

> At the moment I am not too bothered about specific applications, just
> if I can get some hands on experience, whatever i/o ports are
> available on whatever board I use, I will think of some little project
> to try out using them.

The quartus RTL viewer is an appropriate tool for learning to code RTL.
The modelsim editor is good for learning vhdl and verilog syntax,
even if you are not interested in simulation.

   -- Mike Treseler

On 8/17/2010 1:07 PM,
r...@googlemail.com wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm interested in learning more about FPGAs in a hands on way. Can
> anyone recommend an inexpensive set of tools to get started with? My
> wishlist is: I'd like to develop on Linux, I'd like to spend no more
> than a few hundred $ on a starter kit, I'd like to learn using the
> tools and up-to-date skills that are relevant to the more high end set
> ups available. Which is better to start with, Xilinx or Altera or
> something else? Is there a choice between Verilog and VHDL to be made,
> or can both be tried out just as easily?
>
> At the moment I am not too bothered about specific applications, just
> if I can get some hands on experience, whatever i/o ports are
> available on whatever board I use, I will think of some little project
> to try out using them.
>
> Thanks for your recommendations.
>
> Rupert

I'm pretty much a novice when it comes to the actual coding, but I've 
been lurking around this group and looking into low end development kits 
for some time now.

I'd say that you should take a good look at the Digilent web site 
(www.digilentinc.com), they specialize in entry level kits and actually 
designed more than one of the boards that have been offered by the big 
guys.  The "Nexys 2" board, for example, is only $129 and could keep you 
busy with interesting projects for some time.  And I think the 
associated "Digital Design" book is worth the extra $50 for a beginner. 
  It starts out pretty slowly, but does get up to projects with modest 
complexity by the end.  It's available in both Verilog and VHDL flavors.

If you just want a minimum cost FPGA board with a bunch of I/O to play 
with (but less hand-holding) look at Enterpoint's Craignell modules 
(enterpoint.co.uk), Sparkfun's Break Out Board (www.sparkfun.com), 
OHO-Elektronik's GODIL boards (www.oho-elektronik.de), KNJN's Pluto 
boards (www.knjn.com), or terasIC's Max II Micro board 
(www.terasic.com.tw/en/).  The terasIC and KNJN boards are Altera, the 
rest are Xilinx.  The terasIC and the Nexys_2 are unique because they 
don't need a separate programmer (well KNJN only needs a serial 
adapter).  In fact the terasIC board can even be used in place of an 
Altera programmer to configure other boards.

Just some ideas for things to look at.

Chris Abele

On Aug 17, 8:43=A0pm, Jonathan Bromley
<s...@oxfordbromley.plus.com>
wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:07:45 -0700 (PDT),
>
> rupertlssm...@googlemail.com wrote:
> >I'm interested in learning more about FPGAs
>
> Wow. =A0I think this thread reminds me why it's still
> kinda nice to hang out on comp.arch.fpga (and
> comp.lang.vhdl, .verilog).
>
> You get three seriously expert people, with distinctly
> different viewpoints and distinctly different positions,
> each giving a clearly expressed and nuanced take on
> a bunch of issues (X vs A, Verilog vs VHDL) that
> could so easily degenerate into a schoolyard scrap.
>
> And the OP gets spot-on advice too.
>
> Hard to beat. =A0Thanks to all the contributors for
> their time and their generously shared expertise.
> --
> Jonathan Bromley

Yes, some excellent advice, thanks very much.

I hadn't really appreciated that I can download Xilinx ISE or Altera
Quartus web editions for free and that both run on Linux. Also that I
can run simulations of designs without having a chip to program them
onto, so it looks like I can at least have a play around with the
basics at no cost at all.

Is a development environment like Xilinx ISE or Altera Quartus
necessary? or are there standalone Verilog or VHDL compilers available
that can be used? I'm a bit unclear as to the process of going from
the source code to writing the design onto the chip. The development
boards generally have an FPGA chip that is removable, and one removes
it and inserts it into a 'programmer' to burn in the design? or is the
FPGA chip fixed onto the dev board and gets programmed in place?