Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product and yet it segfaults = on me all the time. Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings = or errors (such as when there is a port width mismatch) it just core dumps = instead, leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until I figure out w= hy it's crashing. That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to = be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.
Modelsim ought to be cheaper
Started by ●April 23, 2013
Reply by ●April 23, 20132013-04-23
On Tue, 23 Apr 2013 13:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Neilson <kevin.neilson@xilinx.com> wrote:> Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product and yet it segfaults on me all the time. Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings or errors (such as when there is a port width mismatch) it just core dumps instead, leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until I figure out why it's crashing. That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.An argument could be made that it's so expensive even with its segfaults because, even with it segfaulting all the time, you were willing to pay them as much as they asked for it. -- Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com Email address domain is currently out of order. See above to fix.
Reply by ●April 23, 20132013-04-23
On 4/23/2013 4:13 PM, Kevin Neilson wrote:> Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product and yet it segfaults on me all the time. Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings or errors (such as when there is a port width mismatch) it just core dumps instead, leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until I figure out why it's crashing. That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.I am using ActiveHDL which is a competing product, but both are free as far as I know. I don't buy them, I get them with the vendors free tools. I guess when you pay for them you get a version that isn't crippled and runs faster. Most of the stuff I do the simulation doesn't take so long that this is a problem. I've never seen the sort of bugs you are talking about. I do remember that some 10 years ago they had a memory leak that would crash it after running for some hours. I never saw them fix that problem, it continued release after release. I only switched to AHDL because Lattice switched tools. I ordered a paid version of their tools (at that time they didn't give a simulator) and between the time I placed the order and the time I received it an tried to fire it up, it wouldn't license! Seems they switched brands and I *had* to use AHDL whether I wanted to or not. I ranted and raved for a bit (that was pretty dirty pool) but in the end I didn't see much of a difference and like AHDL pretty well. I think they have a trial version, you might give it a try. I don't see it crashing like you are saying Modelsim does. -- Rick
Reply by ●April 23, 20132013-04-23
On 4/23/2013 4:20 PM, Rob Gaddi wrote:> On Tue, 23 Apr 2013 13:13:42 -0700 (PDT) > Kevin Neilson<kevin.neilson@xilinx.com> wrote: > >> Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product and yet it segfaults on me all the time. Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings or errors (such as when there is a port width mismatch) it just core dumps instead, leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until I figure out why it's crashing. That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware. > > An argument could be made that it's so expensive even with its > segfaults because, even with it segfaulting all the time, you were > willing to pay them as much as they asked for it.Yes, you could make that argument... but why bother? -- Rick
Reply by ●April 24, 20132013-04-24
On 23/04/2013 21:13, Kevin Neilson wrote:> Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature productMature product? you do know that simulators are constantly being enhanced with new language features, standards and debug capabilities. The last thing I would call a simulator (or any maintained EDA product) is mature.> and yet it segfaults on me all the time.Then either you are very unlucky, have a unreliable PC or have a "nack" for writing disastrous code, sorry but I have been using Modelsim since version 4.7 and yes it does occasional crash but no more than any other EDA tool I use.> Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings or errors (such as when there is a port > width mismatch) it just core dumps instead,Port mismatches very rarely result in a core dump, if it does then contact Mentor support. Modelsim create a stack dump in vsim_stacktrace.vstf when it crashes, include this in your Service Request. I also find that using the command line "vsim -c" has a better chance of giving me a verror code. leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until> I figure out why it's crashing.single stepping might be quicker. Using a different version (like 10.0f which was released after 10.2a) might also allow you to continue to work while engineering looks at your core dump. That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be> cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.I agree, EDA tools are too expensive but then again the user group is pretty small and as I mentioned earlier standards are being created and updated all the time which cost money. Now why is Vivado-HLS crashing again on my code....... Hans www.ht-lab.com
Reply by ●April 25, 20132013-04-25
>Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product and yet it segfaults=>on me all the time. Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings=>or errors (such as when there is a port width mismatch) it just core dumps=>instead, leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until I figure outw=>hy it's crashing. That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to=>be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware. >What version are you running? Which OS? How much memory has your PC? Which language are you writing in? --------------------------------------- Posted through http://www.FPGARelated.com
Reply by ●April 25, 20132013-04-25
On Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54:36 AM UTC-4, HT-Lab wrote:> > On 23/04/2013 21:13, Kevin Neilson wrote: Why is Modelsim so expensive? > > It is a mature product Mature product?=20> you do know that simulators are constantly being enhanced with new langua=ge> features, standards and debug capabilities. The last thing I would call a > simulator (or any maintained EDA product) is mature.If that's your definition, then virtually no product would ever be 'mature'= .> > and yet it segfaults on me all the time. > Then either you are very unlucky, have a unreliable PC or have a "nack" f=or> writing disastrous code, sorry but I have been using Modelsim since versi=on=20> 4.7 and yes it does occasional crash but no more than any other EDA tool =I=20> use.Don't blame the user. I've seen the same behavior with every single 10.x r= elease. At which point I'll write up a service request, Mentor will reprod= uce it and many times I'll have to revert back to version 6.4 which for me = at least was the last really stable release. Kevin Jennings
Reply by ●April 25, 20132013-04-25
KJ <kkjennings@sbcglobal.net> wrote:> Don't blame the user. I've seen the same behavior with every single 10.x > release. At which point I'll write up a service request, Mentor will > reproduce it and many times I'll have to revert back to version 6.4 which > for me at least was the last really stable release.On the subject of Modelsim, how does it relate to Questa SV/AFV? I've read various things that refer to Questa as if it's Modelsim renamed, but others that suggest they're different simulators (ie there's a non-trivial overhead in switching from one to the other). I realise there's other things called 'Questa', just to make this more confusing. Currently we're on Modelsim 6.5c and have Questa 10.1d available (but not installed) - I'm wondering how transparent the upgrade path would be. Theo
Reply by ●May 13, 20132013-05-13
On Tuesday, April 23, 2013 10:13:42 PM UTC+2, Kevin Neilson wrote:> That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be cheaper if it='s going to coredump like freeware. I never had too many problems with Modelsim...But all hardware tools and si= mulators are very expensive. More than what would be logical for their cost= . But it is a small market with few competitive tools and since there is la= ck of options even these high prices are paid...Is there a open alternative= that is competitive? That would help the situation a lot. GHDL for example= ? Has anyone used it? does it fare well compared to other commercial simula= tors?
Reply by ●May 13, 20132013-05-13
On 13/05/2013 14:56, turin231@gmail.com wrote:> On Tuesday, April 23, 2013 10:13:42 PM UTC+2, Kevin Neilson wrote: >> That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware. > > I never had too many problems with Modelsim...But all hardware tools and simulators are very expensive. More than what would be logical for their cost. But it is a small market with few competitive tools and since there is lack of options even these high prices are paid...Is there a open alternative that is competitive? That would help the situation a lot. GHDL for example? Has anyone used it? does it fare well compared to other commercial simulators? >If your designs are not that large and you are happy with a single language then I would recommend the free OEM version of Modelsim. You can get it from Altera, Microsemi, Lattice etc. Xilinx Isim is also free and getting better with every version. Altera also has a paid for Modelsim AE version which sits just below PE in terms of speed and capacity, the price in the UK is about a 1000 pounds. Hans www.ht-lab.com
