Book recommendation

Hi,

I'm new on this group. I'm starting my final year's project and I'm building a "interpolated multi-axis controller" (aka NC controller).

I will use a FPGA (probably an spartan 3) to build a DDS, a quadrature encoder interface and some others digital circuits.

My knowledge about VHDL is not really good, I'd read some tutorials about VHDL and I played with VHDL a little. But what I don't know is the best way to implement these digital circuits.

So, what I want is some suggestions about what book I need to buy to learn how implement configuration registers, QEI, DDS, microcontroller interface, etc. I see some books on amazon, but I'm still in doubt about them.

TIA,
Paulo Ricardo.

On Wed, 09 Oct 2013 10:02:43 -0700, Paulo Ricardo Pabst wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm new on this group. I'm starting my final year's project and I'm
> building a "interpolated multi-axis controller" (aka NC controller).
> 
> I will use a FPGA (probably an spartan 3) to build a DDS, a quadrature
> encoder interface and some others digital circuits.
> 
> My knowledge about VHDL is not really good, I'd read some tutorials
> about VHDL and I played with VHDL a little. But what I don't know is the
> best way to implement these digital circuits.
> 
> So, what I want is some suggestions about what book I need to buy to
> learn how implement configuration registers, QEI, DDS, microcontroller
> interface, etc. I see some books on amazon, but I'm still in doubt about
> them.

How much do you know about digital design already?  A good VHDL book 
isn't going to tell you much about digital design -- it's going to tell 
you how, after you know what you want, you can translate that desire into 
VHDL.  So if your first problem is that you have no clue what a DDS, a 
quadrature encoder interface, and those other digital circuits should do, 
then your primary need is not a VHDL book.

If that's the case, then you want to look for a book with a title that's 
more along the line of "Digital Logic Design (with VHDL)"; i.e., you want 
a book about digital logic design that uses VHDL to convey the design 
content.  This will fill in your most crying need, and hopefully give you 
enough VHDL chops to get you by.

The book on my shelf is the opposite.  It's "The Designer's Guide to VHDL" 
by Peter Ashenden, and its meant for people who know digital design, but 
not VHDL.  

Keep in mind, though, that I'm no VHDL expert, and the book was just the 
likeliest-looking one at Powell's when I went shopping.  I'd look to it 
only if no one else coughs up a title.  It proved adequate to what I was 
doing, but what I was doing was largely showing that an algorithm was 
feasible _at all_; once I had a first cut working the real FPGA designers 
on the project took it out of my hands and made it work with fewer gates 
and at a higher clock rate and all that good stuff.

Unless your prof is demanding that you do this with an FPGA, or unless 
you want to use an FPGA just because, you may want to consider 
implementing those functions on the microcontroller that you're 
interfacing with.  I'm certainly not saying you definitely _should_ -- 
I've just found that it's often cheaper to pull moderate-speed "logic" 
functions into the micro, particularly if I'm at liberty to shop for the 
microprocessor I need (for instance: many micros these days are made 
specifically for motor control, and have quadrature encoder interfaces 
built in).

-- 

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Em quarta-feira, 9 de outubro de 2013 10h48min08s UTC-7, Tim Wescott  escre=
veu:
> On Wed, 09 Oct 2013 10:02:43 -0700, Paulo Ricardo Pabst wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > Hi,
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > I'm new on this group. I'm starting my final year's project and I'm
>=20
> > building a "interpolated multi-axis controller" (aka NC controller).
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > I will use a FPGA (probably an spartan 3) to build a DDS, a quadrature
>=20
> > encoder interface and some others digital circuits.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > My knowledge about VHDL is not really good, I'd read some tutorials
>=20
> > about VHDL and I played with VHDL a little. But what I don't know is th=
e
>=20
> > best way to implement these digital circuits.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > So, what I want is some suggestions about what book I need to buy to
>=20
> > learn how implement configuration registers, QEI, DDS, microcontroller
>=20
> > interface, etc. I see some books on amazon, but I'm still in doubt abou=
t
>=20
> > them.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> How much do you know about digital design already?  A good VHDL book=20
>=20
> isn't going to tell you much about digital design -- it's going to tell=
=20
>=20
> you how, after you know what you want, you can translate that desire into=
=20
>=20
> VHDL.  So if your first problem is that you have no clue what a DDS, a=20
>=20
> quadrature encoder interface, and those other digital circuits should do,=
=20
>=20
> then your primary need is not a VHDL book.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> If that's the case, then you want to look for a book with a title that's=
=20
>=20
> more along the line of "Digital Logic Design (with VHDL)"; i.e., you want=
=20
>=20
> a book about digital logic design that uses VHDL to convey the design=20
>=20
> content.  This will fill in your most crying need, and hopefully give you=
=20
>=20
> enough VHDL chops to get you by.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The book on my shelf is the opposite.  It's "The Designer's Guide to VHDL=
"=20
>=20
> by Peter Ashenden, and its meant for people who know digital design, but=
=20
>=20
> not VHDL. =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Keep in mind, though, that I'm no VHDL expert, and the book was just the=
=20
>=20
> likeliest-looking one at Powell's when I went shopping.  I'd look to it=
=20
>=20
> only if no one else coughs up a title.  It proved adequate to what I was=
=20
>=20
> doing, but what I was doing was largely showing that an algorithm was=20
>=20
> feasible _at all_; once I had a first cut working the real FPGA designers=
=20
>=20
> on the project took it out of my hands and made it work with fewer gates=
=20
>=20
> and at a higher clock rate and all that good stuff.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Unless your prof is demanding that you do this with an FPGA, or unless=20
>=20
> you want to use an FPGA just because, you may want to consider=20
>=20
> implementing those functions on the microcontroller that you're=20
>=20
> interfacing with.  I'm certainly not saying you definitely _should_ --=20
>=20
> I've just found that it's often cheaper to pull moderate-speed "logic"=20
>=20
> functions into the micro, particularly if I'm at liberty to shop for the=
=20
>=20
> microprocessor I need (for instance: many micros these days are made=20
>=20
> specifically for motor control, and have quadrature encoder interfaces=20
>=20
> built in).
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Tim Wescott
>=20
> Wescott Design Services
>=20
> http://www.wescottdesign.com

Tim,

Thanks for quick answer. I've 12 years of experience in electronics design.=
 So I able to do digital design and I know a little of VHDL. What I need is=
 a book that teaches me the best way to make the project. I need to learn h=
ow to "...make it work with fewer gates and at a higher clock rate and all =
that good stuff."

Paulo.

On 09/10/13 21:07, Paulo Ricardo Pabst wrote:
> Thanks for quick answer. I've 12 years of experience
 > in electronics design. So I able to do digital design
 > and I know a little of VHDL. What I need is a book that
 > teaches me the best way to make the project. I need to
 > learn how to "...make it work with fewer gates and at
 > a higher clock rate and all that good stuff."

Since I haven't used VHDL before, I /am/ interested in
pointers to VHDL "style guides", by which I mean:
   - coding patterns and anti-patterns
   - clean directory tree structures for libraries and packages
   - anything else that helps me avoid messy pitfalls
I have seen a few such style guides around, but none
of them are really satisfying!

I have more years electronic experience than I care to
recall, so I'll figure out ways to condense logic and
speed up logic (in my experience each device manufacturer
tends to produce good info about their devices).

Paulo Ricardo Pabst <prpabst@gmail.com> wrote:

(snip)
> Thanks for quick answer. I've 12 years of experience in 
> electronics design. So I able to do digital design and I know 
> a little of VHDL. What I need is a book that teaches me the 
> best way to make the project. I need to learn how to "...make 
> it work with fewer gates and at a higher clock rate and all 
> that good stuff."

For FPGAs logic optimization is a little different from the 
TTL days. For one, any four intput (or, now, 6 input) one output
logic block can be implemented in an LUT. More important for 
speed and high clock rates is pipelining, also because FPGAs
have FFs on each LUT output. (At least many do.) 

There used to be books on the architecture of pipelined computers,
from the days of the IBM 360/91 and Cray-1. Some of the ideas
still work, and some don't. 

The optimizations that the synthesis tools do make it hard to know
which things you need to know and which you don't.

I don't know of any books on optimization for FPGAs, but that
doesn't mean that there aren't any.

-- glen

On 09/10/2013 18:48, Tim Wescott wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Oct 2013 10:02:43 -0700, Paulo Ricardo Pabst wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm new on this group. I'm starting my final year's project and I'm
>> building a "interpolated multi-axis controller" (aka NC controller).
>>
>> I will use a FPGA (probably an spartan 3) to build a DDS, a quadrature
>> encoder interface and some others digital circuits.
>>
>> My knowledge about VHDL is not really good, I'd read some tutorials
>> about VHDL and I played with VHDL a little. But what I don't know is the
>> best way to implement these digital circuits.
>>
>> So, what I want is some suggestions about what book I need to buy to
>> learn how implement configuration registers, QEI, DDS, microcontroller
>> interface, etc. I see some books on amazon, but I'm still in doubt about
>> them.
>
> How much do you know about digital design already?  A good VHDL book
> isn't going to tell you much about digital design -- it's going to tell
> you how, after you know what you want, you can translate that desire into
> VHDL.  So if your first problem is that you have no clue what a DDS, a
> quadrature encoder interface, and those other digital circuits should do,
> then your primary need is not a VHDL book.
>
> If that's the case, then you want to look for a book with a title that's
> more along the line of "Digital Logic Design (with VHDL)"; i.e., you want
> a book about digital logic design that uses VHDL to convey the design
> content.  This will fill in your most crying need, and hopefully give you
> enough VHDL chops to get you by.
>
> The book on my shelf is the opposite.  It's "The Designer's Guide to VHDL"
> by Peter Ashenden, and its meant for people who know digital design, but
> not VHDL.
>
> Keep in mind, though, that I'm no VHDL expert, and the book was just the
> likeliest-looking one at Powell's when I went shopping.  I'd look to it
> only if no one else coughs up a title.  It proved adequate to what I was
> doing, but what I was doing was largely showing that an algorithm was
> feasible _at all_; once I had a first cut working the real FPGA designers
> on the project took it out of my hands and made it work with fewer gates
> and at a higher clock rate and all that good stuff.
>
> Unless your prof is demanding that you do this with an FPGA, or unless
> you want to use an FPGA just because, you may want to consider
> implementing those functions on the microcontroller that you're
> interfacing with.  I'm certainly not saying you definitely _should_ --
> I've just found that it's often cheaper to pull moderate-speed "logic"
> functions into the micro, particularly if I'm at liberty to shop for the
> microprocessor I need (for instance: many micros these days are made
> specifically for motor control, and have quadrature encoder interfaces
> built in).
>
I'm with Tim on this - use a micro if you can.

I've found all books on VHDL or Verilog to be deeply disappointing. The 
best/quickest way to get started in a goodish direction is to go on a 
course but it's not cheap.

I've been using VHDL for years (started with a 1 week course by Esperan 
who don't exist any more.) The only book I have which I would even 
slightly recommend is VHDL 2008 Just the New Stuff by Ashenden and 
Lewis. It's NOT a book to start with.

If you have to do it all on your own trawl the web  - there is a lot of 
"very first step" stuff and quite a lot of useful more advanced material 
but it can be hard sorting the good from the bad.
At least it's free.

(The last Verilog book I bought was over £100 and its just trash.)

BTW if you are at Uni aren't they meant to TEACH you the basic stuff ?

Good luck !

Michael Kellett

I have been programming FPGA with VHDL for some years now. I came from high=
-speed full-custom and digital standard cell semiconductor design with cade=
nce and that was 100% schematic capture.

I have two books:
FPGA prototyping by VHDL examples, by Pong P. Chu
Circuit Design with VHDL, by Volnei A. Pedroni.

Both books gave me a good introduction to the procedure of mapping somethin=
g structural (schematic, block diagram) into something behavioural (RTL, FS=
M), and at the same time cover something I knew, real hardware.

Chu is using Xilinx and Pedroni seems agnostic.

Chu has a short tutorial on a Xilinx project to get started with the toolch=
ain, and Pedroni has tutorials for Xilinx and Altera. I didn't follow any o=
f these tutorials as I pretty much understood the FPGA tools by previous to=
ol experience.

You can have a peek into both books at google books.

Pedroni has a lot of examples on how to use types, both working examples an=
d examples which will not work. That's the section I use most nowadays.

Other than that, Xilinx has some documents on coding style, both for esthet=
ics and for speed. Google for "xilinx coding guidelines" as they are hidden=
 in obscure places.

The switch from schematic structural thinking to VHDL behavioural thinking =
sometimes lead to horrible code. The above books helped me through that per=
iod, specially regarding use of clock enable instead of gated clocks and av=
oid inferring unwanted latches. Just remember to replace the clk'event and =
clk=3D'1' with the modern rising_edge(clk) in the textbook examples.

The biggest hurdle was to accept that the synthesizer could do a better job=
 than me and stop being too clever during design.

--=20
Svenn

On 10/10/2013 09:46, MK wrote:

..
>
> I've been using VHDL for years (started with a 1 week course by Esperan
> who don't exist any more.)

they are still alive and kicking...

Hans
www.ht-lab.com

On 10/10/2013 10:38, HT-Lab wrote:
> On 10/10/2013 09:46, MK wrote:
>
> ..
>>
>> I've been using VHDL for years (started with a 1 week course by Esperan
>> who don't exist any more.)
>
> they are still alive and kicking...
>
> Hans
> www.ht-lab.com
>
>
>
Well so they are - I was sure they'd gone. Perhaps I'll ask them about 
their Verilog for VHDL users course.

Michael Kellett

Em quinta-feira, 10 de outubro de 2013 08h07min48s UTC-7, MK  escreveu:
> On 10/10/2013 10:38, HT-Lab wrote:
> 
> > On 10/10/2013 09:46, MK wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > ..
> 
> >>
> 
> >> I've been using VHDL for years (started with a 1 week course by Esperan
> 
> >> who don't exist any more.)
> 
> >
> 
> > they are still alive and kicking...
> 
> >
> 
> > Hans
> 
> > www.ht-lab.com
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> Well so they are - I was sure they'd gone. Perhaps I'll ask them about 
> 
> their Verilog for VHDL users course.
> 
> 
> 
> Michael Kellett

Thanks for all replies. I will read some articles and look into some open source IP cores (for learning, not for plagiarize). I decided to use FPGA because I need 4 channels QEI, 4 channels DDS and another small logic.

-- Paulo