Using an FPGA to drive the 80386 CPU on a real motherboard

rickman wrote:


> 
> Serial flash parts use extra board space and are a PITA to design in so
> you can program on the board.  The serial configuration of Xilinx parts
> is also rather slow in comparison to the boot time of a internal flash
> FPGA.  I believe it is something like two orders of magnitude faster.
> The Spartan 3AN is a bit of a joke in some respects, but if you are
> using Xilinx parts I guess that is what you get.  If it were a good
> idea, why do they only do that on the 10 year old Spartan 3A line?
> 
Well, the Spartan 3A is a very good price, if you don't need ultimate speed 
or vast density.  It seems to work very well in the relatively modest 
projects I've been working on.

Jon

Rick C. Hodgin wrote:


> On the other hand, you're given a house.  Great.  You have a house. :-)
> It comes from volunteers who heard about your need, and out of the love
> of their heart built you a house.  It's a gift, and the house will carry
> with it that history.  Every time you consider something about that house,
> there will be that original offering given to you.
> 
Well, that sounds like Habitat for Humanity.  A good organization.
Maybe you will be CPUs for Humanity?  But, wasn't that what the Raspberry Pi 
was all about, initially?  And, it is a LOT more computer than a '386, and 
no slave labor involved in Linux.


As for making chips in your garage, besides the part about how difficult it 
will be to get the yield above 0.000%, once the EPA or the neighbors find 
out you are using Arsine, Phosphine and DiBorane in there, you will be doign 
very well if you can keep yourself out of a jail cell.  Especially if you 
happen to be in California.

Jon

On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 3:41:00 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
> On 4/7/2016 8:56 AM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 3:08:16 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
> >> On 4/6/2016 4:38 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 at 3:07:55 PM UTC-4, Aleksandar Kuktin wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Also, why are you doing this? Is this a hobby? Work related? Starting a
> >>>> new bussiness? Want to design and implement a NSA-proof PC?
> >>>
> >>> To be honest, I am a Christian, and I want to use the talents I was gifted
> >>> with and give the fruit of my labor back to God, and to my fellow man (and
> >>> not a pursuit of money, or proprietary IP, or patents, or other such things,
> >>> but rather an expression of love basically in giving back).
> >>
> >> This jogged a memory of a joke I was told at work when I worked on an
> >> IRAD project that was being graded by the government.  The government
> >> format for the write up had a few sections and two were the GOAL and the
> >> PURPOSE.  Everyone was confused about the difference in the two.  So
> >> Fred wrote his report and said his goal was to measure some parameter
> >> and his purpose was to prove the parameter met some requirements.  His
> >> boss read his report and said, "No, your goal is to prove the parameter
> >> met the requirements so what is your purpose?".  He worked on it again
> >> saying his purpose was to show the unit X would work in system Y.  It
> >> was reviewed by his second level boss who said, "No, your goal is to
> >> prove unit X works in system Y, what is your purpose?"
> >>
> >> This happened a couple more times until his report got through all the
> >> reviewers and he presented his report to a meeting.  He started out
> >> saying... "My purpose is to get into heaven".
> >
> > I read this earlier this morning, but I didn't understand it, and still
> > don't.  What does it mean?
> 
> Hmmm... Fred was continually asked why he was doing the research and 
> each time he was told what he thought was his purpose (the reason for 
> doing the project) was really his goal (what he hoped to accomplish by 
> doing this, not the same thing really).  So his abstraction continued to 
> be elevated until it reached his ultimate reason for doing anything... 
> to enter heaven... which really had nothing to do with the research 
> project in a meaningful way.

I'm not doing this to enter into Heaven.  I'm doing this because God has
saved me, and I am changed, and the things in my life I desire to do go
back to Him as a source, and as a destination, because what I possess He
first gave me, and I desire, of my own free will, because of who He is,
to give back to Him.

> You seem to be making a connection between this project and God in a way 
> that no one else understands.  I suspect that is because you are seeing 
> an irrational connection founded in an emotional context.  If there was 
> a logical connection you would be able to explain it.

The other possible explanation is the one given in the Bible, which says
there are things the non-born-again person cannot understand, because they
don't come from a flesh-based understanding, but from the spirit, and until
a person is born again, they don't have the spirit or spiritual discernment
to be able to understand it (http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/2-14.htm).

> So far the only 
> thing I get is that there is something you don't like about Richard 
> Stallman.  Look him up on xkcd.  That site is a hoot!

There are many people who are creative, clever, funny, have amazing
abilities, etc., but they do not honor God with their life, acknowledging
Him as He is, and they have no future, no hope, only the things of this
world which is perishing to seek.

The efforts I give in these areas of labor are unto God, an ongoing
sacrifice offered unto Him of my life (http://biblehub.com/romans/12-1.htm).
It is not just in these areas where I do this, but it is in my life, in all
areas.  God is God to me, and that means something, and I seek to serve Him
here on this Earth, as it is done in Heaven ... with everything we possess.

Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin

On 4/7/2016 3:24 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 3:04:43 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
>> On 4/7/2016 8:52 AM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 2:59:10 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
>>>> On 4/6/2016 11:40 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>>>>> Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I figured the CPUs I'd make would cost $1,000 each in the early samples,
>>>>> OK, the MOSIS standard order is for 40 parts.  So, that's $40K each
>>>>> revision.  Unless you are truly brilliant, it is going to take a BUNCH of
>>>>> respins of the part to get anything working.
>>>>>> with an anticipated 50 to 100 CPU minimum, but that if I am able to create
>>>>>> the industry I'm hoping to create (people who are willing to buy CPUs that
>>>>>> are wrought of love, more than high-speed bells and whistles, looking to
>>>>>> them as a utility to augment man's existence, rather than as a whizz bang
>>>>>> eye candy newest fad ("gotta have the $12K iPhone 6 because my $10K iPhone
>>>>>> 5 is just so last year") kind of thing).
>>>>>
>>>>> Uhhh, I can imagine there will be at LEAST 5 customers for this.  How many
>>>>> shirts do you have?  Because you are certainly going to lose your shirt on
>>>>> this project!
>>>>
>>>> I think Rick H doesn't understand that electronics works exactly the way
>>>> it does because it allows the industry to provide $25 cell phones to
>>>> those who *need* them rather than the $400 latest eye candy phones to
>>>> those who want them.  (I don't know of any $12,000 phones)  In some ways
>>>> the $400 phones subsidize the cheap phones, but not in a serious way.
>>>> The expensive phones just drive the "bleeding edge" market since that
>>>> always costs more initially.  Then once the high initial costs are
>>>> amortized, the rest of us get the benefit of the technology at the
>>>> sustained product rate.
>>>>
>>>> Producing a CPU chip with no real market in an antique technology will
>>>> not help anyone, man or God.
>>>>
>>>> This project *is* starting to sound familiar now.
>>>
>>> I recognize that the industry today works a particular way, and that it
>>> has established itself in a particular manner.  However, I also recognize
>>> that there are alternate ways of doing things, and that were we to regroup
>>> around a focused and purposed relationship with God (one-on-one, each of
>>> us, to Him, and then to one another), then He would be guiding the entire
>>> operation by His sight, which is to be able to orchestrate people world-
>>> wide toward the goals we're pursuing in this world which are given over to
>>> Him.
>>>
>>> The Bible states that whatever we do in word or in deed, we should do all
>>> for the glory of God the Father in Heaven.  We are also told in the Lord's
>>> Prayer that His will should be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven.
>>>
>>> That means we, as people, individually and collectively, must acknowledge
>>> Him as He is while we are here in this world going about our daily affairs.
>>> He can make us prosper in helping one another, in being the strength in
>>> other people's weaknesses, in giving of our gifts, and in love and charity
>>> with our labor.
>>>
>>> It's a different way of looking at things, but it's the one I am committed
>>> to, and to the best of my knowledge, it's the one which is correct as per
>>> the guidance God's given us to be one to another here in this world:  Each
>>> of us operating in love for one another, loving one's neighbor even as our
>>> own self.
>>
>> Ok, but I don't understand how working with the obsolete 386 CPU design
>> has anything to do with God.  What is your goal that is related to God?
>>    Why does working with this chip relate to God any more than working
>> with a $5 ARM chip?
>
> It has to do with beginning with an offering that is based on this
> ongoing personal offering to God.
>
> Think of it this way:  You're given a house.  Great.  You have a house.
> But you find out that the house was built by slave labor, or there were
> people killed in the house during its construction, etc.  The house
> carries with it that history, and no matter what you do in terms of
> paint and wallpaper, the house has that history, and it does affect
> things with regards to it.
>
> On the other hand, you're given a house.  Great.  You have a house. :-)
> It comes from volunteers who heard about your need, and out of the love
> of their heart built you a house.  It's a gift, and the house will carry
> with it that history.  Every time you consider something about that house,
> there will be that original offering given to you.
>
> When I go buy a $5 ARM CPU, or a $100 ARM device, what am I buying?  I
> don't know?  I hear all kinds stories about Chinese workers being
> exploited in the manufacturing of this thing, the assembly of it, etc.
>
> I don't want to be a part of that industry.  I want to create from the
> ground up an industry that has the purpose of giving to people from their
> talents, their skills, with that being the foundation of everything done
> on the project.  I want it to be the origination that goes along with the
> hardware and software.
>
> I don't particular want to have ONLY an obsolete 80386 clone.  As you can
> seem from the designs I've made, I've upgraded it to 40-bits, and to more
> than the standard eight registers, etc.  I've also included not only an
> 80386 ISA, but also an ARM-32 ISA, which will also be extended to 40-bits.
> And I have my own personal ISA in there as well.

So by including the ARM ISA, aren't you back to the problem you are 
trying to get away from?  That house was built with slave labor I 
thought???  Even the 386 was designed with slave labor according to your 
thinking, no?


> On top of that, I have my own kernel, my own operating system, my own
> assemblers, compilers, developer tools, all of which can be designed to
> create our own apps, etc.
>
> It is the foundation of knowledge given unto me by God, that I acknowledge
> as coming from Him, and I desire to build from the ground up all of these
> things in giving back to Him from that which He first gave me.
>
> Make sense?

No, you are still using house designs that were designed with slave 
labor.  If you want to do something for God, you should design your own 
and forget the 386, the ARM and even the FPGA for that matter.  Heck how 
are you going to get PCBs made that aren't related to the same slave 
labor you want to eschew?

-- 

Rick

On 4/7/2016 3:31 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 3:11:16 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
>> On 4/7/2016 8:48 AM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 2:46:51 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
>>>> On 4/6/2016 4:38 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 at 3:07:55 PM UTC-4, Aleksandar Kuktin wrote:
>>>>>> Also, why are you doing this? Is this a hobby? Work related? Starting a
>>>>>> new bussiness? Want to design and implement a NSA-proof PC?
>>>>>
>>>>> To be honest, I am a Christian, and I want to use the talents I was gifted
>>>>> with and give the fruit of my labor back to God, and to my fellow man (and
>>>>> not a pursuit of money, or proprietary IP, or patents, or other such things,
>>>>> but rather an expression of love basically in giving back).
>>>>
>>>> How would this accomplish that, the benefit to God or man?
>>>
>>> Well, it's difficult to describe to many people.  To date, only a small
>>> handful have seen any value in the idea whatsoever ... but, some do see
>>> the value and I am one of them. :-)
>>>
>>> It comes down to our fundamental reason for being alive in this world.
>>> Am I a self-made man with all of my abilities being my abilities?  Or do
>>> I acknowledge that I was gifted with those abilities by God, and then do
>>> I hold God in that place in my life ahead of all things?
>>>
>>> I am not rich.  I am not strong.  I am not many things.  What I am though
>>> He has gifted me with.  I happen to have an interest in these areas and,
>>> despite not having a formal education, have discovered over time that
>>> these things just make sense to me and I'm able to maneuver in them with
>>> little difficulty.  They are also a great interest to me.
>>>
>>> So, I refocus the purposes of my life from within that knowledge and
>>> understanding:  I was created by God.  God had a purpose in creating me.
>>> I desire to do these things in my life, so I will do them for God.  And
>>> if God has another purpose for me in my life, then as I am walking on
>>> this path, He will put up obstacles and roadblocks to move me from this
>>> direction to some other direction, which is the one He truly wanted me
>>> to be on.
>>>
>>> So long as I'm moving, and doing so for Him, I'm walking as I should.
>>> And for me, it's in this industry (hardware, and software).  But for
>>> others walking similarly in their line of work, it would be in whatever
>>> they do, using whatever skills they possess.
>>>
>>> -----
>>> It's an endeavor I've been working on since July 12, 2012, when I had
>>> instead started heading down a path of doing what I'm doing now on
>>> this project, except for GNU and the FSF.  However, just before I began,
>>> I found out some things about Richard Stallman that were very disturbing
>>> to me, and I resolved within myself that I could not work for that
>>> entity, contributing to its growth or prosperity because its very
>>> foundations were wrought of a man whose viewpoints on several things are
>>> not only against God, but against most people's assessment of what is
>>> true right and true wrong.
>>>
>>> So, instead of the Free Software Foundation, I created the Liberty
>>> Software Foundation, and dedicated all of my work to honoring God.  I
>>> have given the labor I possess on these projects away, so that others
>>> might benefit from them.  I have done my best on this project, and not
>>> many others have seen benefit in my work, and I've observed a similar
>>> reaction to my efforts as I see here, where people initially are very
>>> interested in helping, but once they see any kind of an association with
>>> God, or doing work for God, there is a recoil, and a pulling away.  Of
>>> course it makes me sad because I desire to create these hardware and
>>> software products, and I desire to receive help from others, but I also
>>> desire to do it in a way which gives God the credit (glory, honor, praise)
>>> for what He first did in me, giving me the abilities to do any of these
>>> things in the first place, and in all who participate as well.
>>>
>>> In essence, my heart cries out to God in acknowledgement of who He is,
>>> what He has done, and I recognize why we are here in our various short-
>>> comings, ineptitudes, strengths, and abilities:  to help one another.
>>>
>>> We are here to compensate for one another's weaknesses, to be strong in
>>> areas they're weak, and have others be strong in the areas we're weak.
>>> And in these areas of hardware and software design, I would very much
>>> like to have a part running at 4 GHz or faster, but I cannot do that
>>> alone.  My goals are more modest, though my hope remains that I will
>>> not only have a part running at 4 GHz, but rather that God will shine
>>> the light of knowledge and understanding in these areas of physics and
>>> allow a part to be created which operates at 100 GHz or faster, and
>>> does so on less power, less heat, etc.
>>>
>>> I am confident in my relationship with God, and with who God is, so I
>>> seek to do the things I do in my life for Him.  I do this in my work, my
>>> hardware and software pursuits, in my family relationships, in the
>>> relationships I have/attempt with friends, etc.  I make Him part of my
>>> life, and explicitly the biggest part, and the part out front of the
>>> things I do, and I do this because of who He is, who I am, and what He's
>>> given me here in this world.
>>>
>>> Bottom line:  I am not a self-made man.  I need His help, guidance, and
>>> that of those around me.  But I know that together, in acknowledgement
>>> of Him, there is nothing we cannot accomplish.
>>>
>>>>>>> Does anybody have an experience or advice in creating an FPGA-based CPU
>>>>>>> that connects to a real hardware device and simulates the real device's
>>>>>>> abilities?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does simulation count? :D
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes.  Also in emulation, as by a real FPGA product, but one which does not
>>>>> plug into a socket, but is its own entire creation.  Here's an Aleksander
>>>>> who created a 486 SX CPU (it has not integrated FPU):
>>>>>
>>>>>        https://github.com/alfikpl/ao486
>>>>>
>>>>> My goals are part of a project I'm working on called LibSF 386-x40, which
>>>>> is a 40-bit extension to the 80386, and 32-bit ARM.  I use a WEX register
>>>>> model which extends the 32-bit registers to 40-bit registers:
>>>>>
>>>>>        https://github.com/RickCHodgin/libsf/blob/master/li386/li386-documentation/images/wex_register_mapping.png
>>>>>
>>>>> However, in the past couple weeks I've had the idea of a pointer selector,
>>>>> which operates like a segment selector, but on a specific pointer register.
>>>>> When enabled, it loads an extra 8-bits into the segment register associated
>>>>> with specific register, such that it then is able to reference a 4GB window
>>>>> of memory within the 1 TB address space:
>>>>>
>>>>>        https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.arch/bcpb03mL0o0/xUBzCXDmBgAJ
>>>>>
>>>>> These are all part of long-term plans.  I'd like to have my first CPU being
>>>>> shipped to a fab for real manufacturing by July 12, 2022, which I expect to
>>>>> be around a 90 MHz part.
>>>>
>>>> So in 2022 this will rival the $5 ARM MCU devices currently available?
>>>
>>> The part I have planned today won't.  But if more people come together,
>>> we can together create something that will exceed it.  It just takes the
>>> willingness from within to work together, and the guidance of God guiding
>>> our hearts and minds in the right direction, for He is truth, and this
>>> universe is His creation.  If there is anyone who can guide us on the
>>> direction we should go, it's Him.  And I place my faith, hope, and trust
>>> in Him because of who He is.
>>>
>>> That being said, that doesn't mean I don't want to work with you on this
>>> project.  You have exhibited incredible kindness, and I have been moved
>>> by it.  I have these desires to pursue these hardware ends, and nothing
>>> about that has changed.  The only thing that's different now than it was
>>> yesterday or the day before, is that now you know that I am desiring to
>>> do this as an effort given over to God, in honoring Him with the fruits
>>> of my life.  I hope this won't be a stumbling block.  I find your generosity
>>> of spirit refreshing, and your knowledge and experience desirable assets
>>> that you are willing to share so freely.  It's made me happy actually. :-)
>>
>> Ok, so you are trying to do *something* of value to God, but you don't
>> know what value that is.  If you want to get help from people, you need
>> to explain to them how it will be a good thing in ways they can
>> understand.  You can't explain it and you need the help of others to
>> make it happen.  I think you are screwed.
>
> My explanation is given.  It's inherent in the work, and in the various
> pages associated with my work, but more than that it comes from His Holy
> Spirit living inside of me.
>
> The explanation I give probably won't make much sense to anyone who is
> not born again, or in pursuit of truth with their life.  If they place
> no value on these things I'm outlining here, then it won't mean anything.
> The value to them would come from a $5 multi-GHz part, and not from a
> foundation given over to God.
>
> But for the born again believer, that foundation given over to God is a
> real thing, and the believer desires to do everything in his/her life to
> please God, and to bring honor and glory to His name.
>
> It's not a hobby.  It's not a membership in a church roster.  It's an
> inner and fundamental change of the person's makeup and nature.  And from
> within that inner change comes these outward expressions of that change,
> such that the desire to serve God in all areas is manifested.
>
> For me, that means hardware and software.  For the farmer, that means in
> using organic seeds.  For the bricklayer, it means something else, etc.
>
> Each of us decides why we do the things we do, and then we do them for
> those reasons.  For me, it is because God has saved me, and gifted me
> with these talents and abilities, and I desire to serve Him with the
> labor of my life, the ideas of my mind, and the creativity He's given
> me.
>
> I want my life to serve and honor Him, both inwardly, and outwardly, and
> I want to encourage others also to be part of this living act of giving
> back to Him that which He first gave us.  And for those who are born
> again, this will resonate as it is founded in scripture, but more
> importantly, it's founded in the born again nature as by His Holy Spirit.
>
> We are brothers and sisters, and we should be there for each other in
> these ways, looking up to God, and looking out to one another, in that
> order, in and for everything we do.  It's how it will be in Heaven.
> Forever.

You seem to think I don't understand your answer, but it's more of a 
case of you not understanding the question.

-- 

Rick

Rick C. Hodgin wrote:

> On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 at 11:40:35 PM UTC-4, Jon Elson wrote:
>> Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> > 
>> > I figured the CPUs I'd make would cost $1,000 each in the early
>> > samples,
>> OK, the MOSIS standard order is for 40 parts.  So, that's $40K each
>> revision.  Unless you are truly brilliant, it is going to take a BUNCH of
>> respins of the part to get anything working.
> 
> I can't remember who it was I searched a while back (2014 I think), but
> I found a company that was manufacturing on 250nm and 500nm process
> technologies.  The mask sets were $15K each, and each run varied, but
> the total cost for 100 parts was less than $100K including masks.
That is quite amazing, and I find it VERY hard to believe that is in the US.
If going offshore, you may well end up with Chinese or Malaysian 
practically-slave labor making the parts.


> 
> Well, it's not a goal.  It's not being done for money.  I would like to
> have
> assistance from those who are willing to give.
Yes, I got this part, but I think you are massively underestimating costs 
that will be hard to push down.  I make electronic stuff for some VERY niche 
markets, and have some idea what various things cost to have done.  Also, 
since working with having some custom chips made, I have some idea of the 
processes required, and the insane levels of clean room procedures, etc. to 
make stuff work at all.   There are truck-movable clean room packages that 
you can buy, they roll it off the truck and slide it into your facility.  
So, there are outfits that are making various semiconductor products in 
house.  I think a lot of them are diode laser manufacturers, however.

Jon

Jon

On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 3:48:47 PM UTC-4, Jon Elson wrote:
> Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> 
> 
> > On the other hand, you're given a house.  Great.  You have a house. :-)
> > It comes from volunteers who heard about your need, and out of the love
> > of their heart built you a house.  It's a gift, and the house will carry
> > with it that history.  Every time you consider something about that house,
> > there will be that original offering given to you.
> > 
> Well, that sounds like Habitat for Humanity.  A good organization.
> Maybe you will be CPUs for Humanity?  But, wasn't that what the Raspberry Pi 
> was all about, initially?  And, it is a LOT more computer than a '386, and 
> no slave labor involved in Linux.

I look at things like Stallman and Torvalds and their behavior, and that
means something to me.  It reflects the inner man, which is why I am in
pursuit of these endeavors.  That's all.

> As for making chips in your garage, besides the part about how difficult it 
> will be to get the yield above 0.000%, once the EPA or the neighbors find 
> out you are using Arsine, Phosphine and DiBorane in there, you will be doign 
> very well if you can keep yourself out of a jail cell.  Especially if you 
> happen to be in California.

The term "garage" was metaphorical.  It would be me and a small consortium
of people working to produce these chips ourselves using equipment which
is, by industry standards, antiquated, but still viable, rather than having
them made through GlobalFoundries, for example.

Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin

On 07/04/16 21:31, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:

> My explanation is given.  It's inherent in the work, and in the various
> pages associated with my work, but more than that it comes from His Holy
> Spirit living inside of me.
>
> The explanation I give probably won't make much sense to anyone who is
> not born again, or in pursuit of truth with their life.  If they place
> no value on these things I'm outlining here, then it won't mean anything.
> The value to them would come from a $5 multi-GHz part, and not from a
> foundation given over to God.
>
> But for the born again believer, that foundation given over to God is a
> real thing, and the believer desires to do everything in his/her life to
> please God, and to bring honor and glory to His name.
>

In summary, it's the emperor's new clothes.  For those that "understand" 
the "truth", your explanation will all make sense - to everyone else 
(including other Christians - both "born again" Christians and "born 
once" Christians), it's total nonsense.

I can fully understand the idea of wanting to do something meaningful 
with your life, using the skills that you have (or think you have).  I 
can fully understand a dislike of the kind of extreme capitalism and 
amoral (and sometimes even immoral) practices of many large 
corporations.  I can even understand the point of some of your projects, 
such as CAlive, even though I disagree with it technically, practically, 
and philosophically.  But I just cannot comprehend how you think a weird 
extension to a badly designed and long outdated cpu architecture is of 
any conceivable use to man or god, and trying to make it physically 
compatible to ancient hardware is even crazier.


Of course, you are free to make your own choices here - just as I am 
free to show you how they appear to others.  And I'll still offer 
technical advice to technical challenges when I am able - as long as you 
are not harming anyone with your projects, and you are committed to 
continuing them, then a little advice from people like me might help you 
get on slightly faster.

On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 3:56:14 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
> On 4/7/2016 3:24 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 3:04:43 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
> >> On 4/7/2016 8:52 AM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 2:59:10 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
> >>>> On 4/6/2016 11:40 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> >>>>> Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I figured the CPUs I'd make would cost $1,000 each in the early samples,
> >>>>> OK, the MOSIS standard order is for 40 parts.  So, that's $40K each
> >>>>> revision.  Unless you are truly brilliant, it is going to take a BUNCH of
> >>>>> respins of the part to get anything working.
> >>>>>> with an anticipated 50 to 100 CPU minimum, but that if I am able to create
> >>>>>> the industry I'm hoping to create (people who are willing to buy CPUs that
> >>>>>> are wrought of love, more than high-speed bells and whistles, looking to
> >>>>>> them as a utility to augment man's existence, rather than as a whizz bang
> >>>>>> eye candy newest fad ("gotta have the $12K iPhone 6 because my $10K iPhone
> >>>>>> 5 is just so last year") kind of thing).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Uhhh, I can imagine there will be at LEAST 5 customers for this.  How many
> >>>>> shirts do you have?  Because you are certainly going to lose your shirt on
> >>>>> this project!
> >>>>
> >>>> I think Rick H doesn't understand that electronics works exactly the way
> >>>> it does because it allows the industry to provide $25 cell phones to
> >>>> those who *need* them rather than the $400 latest eye candy phones to
> >>>> those who want them.  (I don't know of any $12,000 phones)  In some ways
> >>>> the $400 phones subsidize the cheap phones, but not in a serious way.
> >>>> The expensive phones just drive the "bleeding edge" market since that
> >>>> always costs more initially.  Then once the high initial costs are
> >>>> amortized, the rest of us get the benefit of the technology at the
> >>>> sustained product rate.
> >>>>
> >>>> Producing a CPU chip with no real market in an antique technology will
> >>>> not help anyone, man or God.
> >>>>
> >>>> This project *is* starting to sound familiar now.
> >>>
> >>> I recognize that the industry today works a particular way, and that it
> >>> has established itself in a particular manner.  However, I also recognize
> >>> that there are alternate ways of doing things, and that were we to regroup
> >>> around a focused and purposed relationship with God (one-on-one, each of
> >>> us, to Him, and then to one another), then He would be guiding the entire
> >>> operation by His sight, which is to be able to orchestrate people world-
> >>> wide toward the goals we're pursuing in this world which are given over to
> >>> Him.
> >>>
> >>> The Bible states that whatever we do in word or in deed, we should do all
> >>> for the glory of God the Father in Heaven.  We are also told in the Lord's
> >>> Prayer that His will should be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven.
> >>>
> >>> That means we, as people, individually and collectively, must acknowledge
> >>> Him as He is while we are here in this world going about our daily affairs.
> >>> He can make us prosper in helping one another, in being the strength in
> >>> other people's weaknesses, in giving of our gifts, and in love and charity
> >>> with our labor.
> >>>
> >>> It's a different way of looking at things, but it's the one I am committed
> >>> to, and to the best of my knowledge, it's the one which is correct as per
> >>> the guidance God's given us to be one to another here in this world:  Each
> >>> of us operating in love for one another, loving one's neighbor even as our
> >>> own self.
> >>
> >> Ok, but I don't understand how working with the obsolete 386 CPU design
> >> has anything to do with God.  What is your goal that is related to God?
> >>    Why does working with this chip relate to God any more than working
> >> with a $5 ARM chip?
> >
> > It has to do with beginning with an offering that is based on this
> > ongoing personal offering to God.
> >
> > Think of it this way:  You're given a house.  Great.  You have a house.
> > But you find out that the house was built by slave labor, or there were
> > people killed in the house during its construction, etc.  The house
> > carries with it that history, and no matter what you do in terms of
> > paint and wallpaper, the house has that history, and it does affect
> > things with regards to it.
> >
> > On the other hand, you're given a house.  Great.  You have a house. :-)
> > It comes from volunteers who heard about your need, and out of the love
> > of their heart built you a house.  It's a gift, and the house will carry
> > with it that history.  Every time you consider something about that house,
> > there will be that original offering given to you.
> >
> > When I go buy a $5 ARM CPU, or a $100 ARM device, what am I buying?  I
> > don't know?  I hear all kinds stories about Chinese workers being
> > exploited in the manufacturing of this thing, the assembly of it, etc.
> >
> > I don't want to be a part of that industry.  I want to create from the
> > ground up an industry that has the purpose of giving to people from their
> > talents, their skills, with that being the foundation of everything done
> > on the project.  I want it to be the origination that goes along with the
> > hardware and software.
> >
> > I don't particular want to have ONLY an obsolete 80386 clone.  As you can
> > seem from the designs I've made, I've upgraded it to 40-bits, and to more
> > than the standard eight registers, etc.  I've also included not only an
> > 80386 ISA, but also an ARM-32 ISA, which will also be extended to 40-bits.
> > And I have my own personal ISA in there as well.
> 
> So by including the ARM ISA, aren't you back to the problem you are 
> trying to get away from?  That house was built with slave labor I 
> thought???  Even the 386 was designed with slave labor according to your 
> thinking, no?

I have people ask me this question regularly.  I have no answer to give
that would make sense as people always try to push me back further into
creation, as you have done here ... "Well why don't you just start with
dirt and wood and rock and hay and build up from there.  Surely if you
want to give something to God, you must start with the true fundamentals,"
or other such form of expression.

I have continued in the station I was in when I became a Christian in 2004.
I do not have conviction over my work, but I have great peace, in that I am
giving this labor over to Him, and to other people.

> > On top of that, I have my own kernel, my own operating system, my own
> > assemblers, compilers, developer tools, all of which can be designed to
> > create our own apps, etc.
> >
> > It is the foundation of knowledge given unto me by God, that I acknowledge
> > as coming from Him, and I desire to build from the ground up all of these
> > things in giving back to Him from that which He first gave me.
> >
> > Make sense?
> 
> No, you are still using house designs that were designed with slave 
> labor.  If you want to do something for God, you should design your own 
> and forget the 386, the ARM and even the FPGA for that matter.  Heck how 
> are you going to get PCBs made that aren't related to the same slave 
> labor you want to eschew?

My goal is to create the entire industry, from design to manufacturing.
I would be perfectly content to have someone step forward with a fab
given over to that purpose.  Until such a fab is created, which may only
come from me creating such a fab, I have to use what's there.  But as I
have told many people, once I'm able to bootstrap these efforts, I will
do so, and never look back.  The same is true with software, hardware,
and manufacturing.

But, we have to begin somewhere, and this is where I'm beginning... taking
what's here, and turning it around and giving it to God, desiring to build
the solid foundation upon an offering unto Him, and in all areas that are
involved.  It's more than I can do alone, but I continue to pray that He
will send others, or that He will move me away from these endeavors and put
me at the place He would have me be, so that I am well within His will.

It's my desire:  to serve Him, and in the capacity He's provided for me.
I am doing that to the best of my ability, and pray I continue to do so.

Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin

On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 3:57:30 PM UTC-4, Jon Elson wrote:
> Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> 
> > On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 at 11:40:35 PM UTC-4, Jon Elson wrote:
> >> Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> > 
> >> > I figured the CPUs I'd make would cost $1,000 each in the early
> >> > samples,
> >> OK, the MOSIS standard order is for 40 parts.  So, that's $40K each
> >> revision.  Unless you are truly brilliant, it is going to take a BUNCH of
> >> respins of the part to get anything working.
> > 
> > I can't remember who it was I searched a while back (2014 I think), but
> > I found a company that was manufacturing on 250nm and 500nm process
> > technologies.  The mask sets were $15K each, and each run varied, but
> > the total cost for 100 parts was less than $100K including masks.
> That is quite amazing, and I find it VERY hard to believe that is in the US.
> If going offshore, you may well end up with Chinese or Malaysian 
> practically-slave labor making the parts.

I can't remember who it was.  I have an email.  Most of the companies I
sought were unwilling to entertain a run of a single wafer.  But a couple
of them pointed me to smaller firms which specialize in one-off wafers.
I contacted them asking for pricing of an approximately 200 mm^2 chip on
250nm to 500nm process technologies.  That was the information I was
given.  Nothing formal.  No contracts or an examination of any type of
design.  But, just a ball-park figure.

> > Well, it's not a goal.  It's not being done for money.  I would like to
> > have
> > assistance from those who are willing to give.
> Yes, I got this part, but I think you are massively underestimating costs 
> that will be hard to push down.  I make electronic stuff for some VERY niche 
> markets, and have some idea what various things cost to have done.  Also, 
> since working with having some custom chips made, I have some idea of the 
> processes required, and the insane levels of clean room procedures, etc. to 
> make stuff work at all.   There are truck-movable clean room packages that 
> you can buy, they roll it off the truck and slide it into your facility.  
> So, there are outfits that are making various semiconductor products in 
> house.  I think a lot of them are diode laser manufacturers, however.

I have spent some time researching this industry, and the clean room
requirements of 3,000 to 10,000 nm process technologies are significantly
different than modern fabs' needs.  But, I hear what you are saying, and
I appreciate the information.  I have been content to produce products
which run in FPGA form on a little board which plugs in to my system,
though I ultimately would like to create a completely integrated system
with all components to have a fully functional real computer made atop
this protractive effort.

And, when I speak of these things, I always reference James 4:15, which
is about acknowledging that the Lord may have other plans for me, and if
so then I will follow Him.

Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin