I know this is an FPGA news group, and my question is about CPLDs, but there did not seem to be a CPLD news group! So here goes... I am comparing these two families. Going to pick one of the two for a bunch of new designs. After comparing the features, the XPLA3 seem to be much better bang for the buck compared to the MAX3000. Price seems to be equal, but on a feature basis the XPLA3 is significantly better. However, Xilinx cut the XPLA1 and XPLA2 lines. My fear is that the same could happen to XPLA3. The Altera folks tell me that Altera/MAX has huge market share and focus in CPLDs, while CPLDs only account for 10% of Xilinx business. Any comments? Do you think the XPLA3 parts are gonna stay in production over the long haul? Thanks, Chris.
XPLA3 vs. MAX3000A
Started by ●July 2, 2003
Reply by ●July 2, 20032003-07-02
chris_s wrote:> > I know this is an FPGA news group, and my question is about CPLDs, but there > did not seem to be a CPLD news group! So here goes... > > I am comparing these two families. Going to pick one of the two for a bunch > of new designs. After comparing the features, the XPLA3 seem to be much > better bang for the buck compared to the MAX3000. Price seems to be equal, > but on a feature basis the XPLA3 is significantly better. > > However, Xilinx cut the XPLA1 and XPLA2 lines. My fear is that the same > could happen to XPLA3. The Altera folks tell me that Altera/MAX has huge > market share and focus in CPLDs, while CPLDs only account for 10% of Xilinx > business. > > Any comments? Do you think the XPLA3 parts are gonna stay in production > over the long haul?I'd also look at the Atmel ATF15xx, and Lattice ispMAX4000 families. Altera may have the largest CPLD chunk, but they have not done much in an Architectural sense, and their Icc is quite high. Xilinx have the newer XC2 in front of the XPLA3, so you could spin a design, and check the FIT in both families. With Atmel, Lattice and Xilinx all offering low static Icc CPLDs, Altera are looking a tad dated. -jg
Reply by ●July 3, 20032003-07-03
So both of you are suggesting going a different direction than Altera. I have been burned twice before by prog logic parts going away. That's why I am only going to consider designing in something that is in widespread use - either Altera or Xilinix. Its got to be around for >10 years. The Xilinx XPLA3 are better parts than the MAX3000. Even the Altera FAE here admits it. But are they going to be around in the future? I know MAX3000 will be around because there are tons of people using them. I just don't know how many XPLA3 are in use. Won't touch Atmel, Lattice or anything else. Too risky, too little market share. My requirement is full 3.3V in and out. So XC2 is no good (2.5V). The Altera people told me that a new CPLD family is coming out soon. It will be lower power. Sounds like Altera has gotten very sick of hearing their parts are current hogs. Xilinx says that they also have a new CR (2.5V) part coming out, but it will probably replace the XC2 line, not XPLA3. They say XPLA3 is not going to be obsolete. Does not sound like either of you are using the XPLA3. That concerns me. Chris.
Reply by ●July 3, 20032003-07-03
Chris_S <nospam@nospam.com> wrote: : So both of you are suggesting going a different direction than Altera. : I have been burned twice before by prog logic parts going away. That's why : I am only going to consider designing in something that is in widespread : use - either Altera or Xilinix. Its got to be around for >10 years. : The Xilinx XPLA3 are better parts than the MAX3000. Even the Altera FAE : here admits it. But are they going to be around in the future? I know : MAX3000 will be around because there are tons of people using them. I just : don't know how many XPLA3 are in use. : Won't touch Atmel, Lattice or anything else. Too risky, too little market : share. : My requirement is full 3.3V in and out. So XC2 is no good (2.5V). ... XC2 (Coolrunner II) is 3.3 Volt in and out, if you provide that IO voltage. Bye -- Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt --------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------
Reply by ●July 3, 20032003-07-03
Chris_S <nospam@nospam.com> wrote: :> XC2 (Coolrunner II) is 3.3 Volt in and out, if you provide that IO : voltage. : Yeh I guess you are right, but not with a single supply of course. I would : have to add regulators everywhere for the 1.8V cores and that might become a : pain. A small SOT23 regulator fits nicely below the Coolrunner (Coolrunner on top, regulator on botton). So no need for an extra supply layer. XC2C is not sensitive to power sequencing, so no problem their neither. The Xetex XC6204 goes for about 0.77 EuroCent at Farnell. : Based on what the FAE told me the CR2 may go away. Apparently what they are : coming out with next will be the successor to that family. Don't know if : the pinouts will change. Even XC95XV(L) and XC2C have very similar pinout. Bye -- Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt --------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------
Reply by ●July 3, 20032003-07-03
Chris_S wrote:> > So both of you are suggesting going a different direction than Altera. > > I have been burned twice before by prog logic parts going away. That's why > I am only going to consider designing in something that is in widespread > use - either Altera or Xilinix. Its got to be around for >10 years.Wow, you don't ask for much. I suggest that you check around and see how many PLDs, other than the 20V10s or smaller, have been available for 10 years. I expect you will not find one! This is just not the way of very many semiconductors.> The Xilinx XPLA3 are better parts than the MAX3000. Even the Altera FAE > here admits it. But are they going to be around in the future? I know > MAX3000 will be around because there are tons of people using them. I just > don't know how many XPLA3 are in use.There are plenty enough to keep the family in production for a normal lifetime of 5 or 6 years.> Won't touch Atmel, Lattice or anything else. Too risky, too little market > share.You should take another look at both Atmel and Lattice. Don't go by some silly number like "market share". Check out the longevity of the parts they made 5 or more years ago.> My requirement is full 3.3V in and out. So XC2 is no good (2.5V).If you are talking about power supply, then you can't use *any* of the newer parts. If you are talking about IO standards, then you can use LVTTL with nearly *any* family out there.> The Altera people told me that a new CPLD family is coming out soon. It > will be lower power. Sounds like Altera has gotten very sick of hearing > their parts are current hogs.Did they give you a schedule by any chance? If they don't have a schedule then you shouldn't expect it within the year. Oh, yeah, don't expect it to be 5 volt tolerant. If you only need LVTTL, then you should be ok, but all newer devices are 5 volt phobic.> Xilinx says that they also have a new CR (2.5V) part coming out, but it will > probably replace the XC2 line, not XPLA3. They say XPLA3 is not going to be > obsolete.I very seriously doubt that Xilinx is going to replace the XC2 line. It is not very old at all. The XPLA3 line is 5 volt tolerant (sort of) and no new process can replace that. Where did you hear this new line?> Does not sound like either of you are using the XPLA3. That concerns me. > > Chris.-- Rick "rickman" Collins rick.collins@XYarius.com Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY removed. Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com 4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
Reply by ●July 3, 20032003-07-03
> I very seriously doubt that Xilinx is going to replace the XC2 line. It > is not very old at all. The XPLA3 line is 5 volt tolerant (sort of) and > no new process can replace that. Where did you hear this new line?The FAE told me that the next CR, say CR-III, will be very low voltage again like 1.5 or 1.8. That would certainly not be a replacement for the XPLA3 family since it is 3.3V. It is far more likely it would replace the CR-II family. At least that's what the Xilinx FAE thought. Chris.
Reply by ●July 3, 20032003-07-03
chris_s wrote:> > > I very seriously doubt that Xilinx is going to replace the XC2 line. It > > is not very old at all. The XPLA3 line is 5 volt tolerant (sort of) and > > no new process can replace that. Where did you hear this new line? > > The FAE told me that the next CR, say CR-III, will be very low voltage again > like 1.5 or 1.8. That would certainly not be a replacement for the XPLA3 > family since it is 3.3V. It is far more likely it would replace the CR-II > family. At least that's what the Xilinx FAE thought.Perhaps "replace" is a poor word to use here. None of these families "replace" another. They will still make the older family and the new one will never fill the same socket since it uses a different voltage. But I seriously doubt that Xilinx is spending a lot of time or effort on updating the CR2 family since they are really still shiny new. This may be something in the works, but I doubt that you will hear it announced for 6 months or more and chips are not likely for a year. -- Rick "rickman" Collins rick.collins@XYarius.com Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY removed. Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com 4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
Reply by ●July 3, 20032003-07-03
Chris_S wrote: <snip>> The Altera people told me that a new CPLD family is coming out soon. It > will be lower power. Sounds like Altera has gotten very sick of hearing > their parts are current hogs.Can they elaborate on the 'out soon', in this industry, that can reach to the end of 2004 :)> Xilinx says that they also have a new CR (2.5V) part coming out, but it will > probably replace the XC2 line, not XPLA3. They say XPLA3 is not going to be > obsolete.This sounds a little mangled, and someone from Xilinx may enlighten us. It may be that the 'new' CoolRunner is the XC2 family ? The XC2 is so new, only the XC2C256 gives web supply hits. Once released, a device will only go obsolete if volumes get too small, or the FAB line closes. The latter happened to Lattice and Xilinx, but only affected design lines they purchased. -jg
Reply by ●July 3, 20032003-07-03
rickman wrote:> > Chris_S wrote:<snip> > The Altera people told me that a new CPLD family is coming out soon. It> > will be lower power. Sounds like Altera has gotten very sick of hearing > > their parts are current hogs. > > Did they give you a schedule by any chance? If they don't have a > schedule then you shouldn't expect it within the year. Oh, yeah, don't > expect it to be 5 volt tolerant. If you only need LVTTL, then you > should be ok, but all newer devices are 5 volt phobic.Not entirely - the new Lattice devices offer 5V tolerance, but they also spec 'no more than 32 IO' at a time. Strange spec, how does one IO 'know' the state of another ?! On some devices the IO tolerance is spec'd also CORE relative, so you can get caught if your IO power is present, and the core voltage is not! Lattice appear to be using on-chip regulators, so the multi-rail dance is showing signs of simplifying. The regulator is a bit 'ordinary', so the Icc goes up on those variants. There are uC being released with regulated core voltages (eg AT89C51ED2) so that is a sensible solution, esp for the smaller CPLD's -jg
