eliminating a DDS

I have a design that will use a DDS synthesizer to generate an
internal trigger rate for a pulse generator. The chip will be a ZYNQ
7020. The required upper frequency limit is maybe 20 MHz. The FPGA
will have the usual, 48 bit or so, phase accumulator and sine lookup
stuff clocked at maybe 100 MHz. The FPGA drives a fast DAC which in
turn drives an LC lowpass filter and a comparator. Standard stuff.

But could such a clock be generated entirely inside the FPGA?

Just using the MSB of the DDS phase accumulator works, but it will
have one full clock, 10 ns p-p, of jitter. That will be ugly at 20
MHz. I've got to look into some sort of outboard analog filtering to
clean up that single-bit clock, but I'm not optimistic. DDS is just
too weird.

Do you suppose that one of the FPGA PLLs be used to clean up the DDS
clock, scrub the jitter somehow? That could maybe be used over a
modest range, octave maybe, followed by some dividers.

Any other ideas for making a programmable-frequency clock with DDS
sort of resolution, but without all that outboard analog stuff?

I've been playing with sorta DDS in LT Spice, using a quantizer to
approximate the DDS accumulator and DAC, but that's obviously not the
best tool for this.



-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics 

On 04/09/2016 19:11, John Larkin wrote:
>
>
> I have a design that will use a DDS synthesizer to generate an
> internal trigger rate for a pulse generator. The chip will be a ZYNQ
> 7020. The required upper frequency limit is maybe 20 MHz. The FPGA
> will have the usual, 48 bit or so, phase accumulator and sine lookup
> stuff clocked at maybe 100 MHz. The FPGA drives a fast DAC which in
> turn drives an LC lowpass filter and a comparator. Standard stuff.
>
> But could such a clock be generated entirely inside the FPGA?
>
> Just using the MSB of the DDS phase accumulator works, but it will
> have one full clock, 10 ns p-p, of jitter. That will be ugly at 20
> MHz. I've got to look into some sort of outboard analog filtering to
> clean up that single-bit clock, but I'm not optimistic. DDS is just
> too weird.
>
> Do you suppose that one of the FPGA PLLs be used to clean up the DDS
> clock, scrub the jitter somehow? That could maybe be used over a
> modest range, octave maybe, followed by some dividers.

That isn't how FPGA PLLs work. They add jitter rather than removing it!

> Any other ideas for making a programmable-frequency clock with DDS
> sort of resolution, but without all that outboard analog stuff?
>
> I've been playing with sorta DDS in LT Spice, using a quantizer to
> approximate the DDS accumulator and DAC, but that's obviously not the
> best tool for this.

The jitter of a clock derived from within a FPGA would simply be related 
to the clock frequency used.

If you use a 250MHz clock, as per the max frequency of many cheap FPGAs, 
then jitter will be 4ns (+ a small bit).

What jitter spec are you looking for? What is the range of frequencies 
you require?

Would a VCO / PLL be a better bet to filter the digital jitter, using 
the MSB of your phase accumulator as the reference?

-- 
Mike Perkins
Video Solutions Ltd
www.videosolutions.ltd.uk

On Sun, 4 Sep 2016 20:13:04 +0100, Mike Perkins <spam@spam.com> wrote:

>On 04/09/2016 19:11, John Larkin wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have a design that will use a DDS synthesizer to generate an
>> internal trigger rate for a pulse generator. The chip will be a ZYNQ
>> 7020. The required upper frequency limit is maybe 20 MHz. The FPGA
>> will have the usual, 48 bit or so, phase accumulator and sine lookup
>> stuff clocked at maybe 100 MHz. The FPGA drives a fast DAC which in
>> turn drives an LC lowpass filter and a comparator. Standard stuff.
>>
>> But could such a clock be generated entirely inside the FPGA?
>>
>> Just using the MSB of the DDS phase accumulator works, but it will
>> have one full clock, 10 ns p-p, of jitter. That will be ugly at 20
>> MHz. I've got to look into some sort of outboard analog filtering to
>> clean up that single-bit clock, but I'm not optimistic. DDS is just
>> too weird.
>>
>> Do you suppose that one of the FPGA PLLs be used to clean up the DDS
>> clock, scrub the jitter somehow? That could maybe be used over a
>> modest range, octave maybe, followed by some dividers.
>
>That isn't how FPGA PLLs work. They add jitter rather than removing it!

We did one clock X2 multiply with a Xilinx DLL, 40 ==> 80 MHz, and the
resulting clock period was bimodal, about 80 ps or so. Ugly. The
actual jitter, ignoring the bimode, wasn't bad.

>
>> Any other ideas for making a programmable-frequency clock with DDS
>> sort of resolution, but without all that outboard analog stuff?
>>
>> I've been playing with sorta DDS in LT Spice, using a quantizer to
>> approximate the DDS accumulator and DAC, but that's obviously not the
>> best tool for this.
>
>The jitter of a clock derived from within a FPGA would simply be related 
>to the clock frequency used.
>
>If you use a 250MHz clock, as per the max frequency of many cheap FPGAs, 
>then jitter will be 4ns (+ a small bit).
>
>What jitter spec are you looking for? What is the range of frequencies 
>you require?

Picoseconds of period jitter would be nice!

>
>Would a VCO / PLL be a better bet to filter the digital jitter, using 
>the MSB of your phase accumulator as the reference?

Or maybe a filter and comparator? Instinct suggests that would be
mediocre. The real advantage of outboard DDS-MSB clock cleanup is all
those DAC pins saved; probably no cost advantage.

This was a longshot question, just to see if there was some clever
trick lurking somewhere.



-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics 

Den søndag den 4. september 2016 kl. 20.11.40 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
> I have a design that will use a DDS synthesizer to generate an
> internal trigger rate for a pulse generator. The chip will be a ZYNQ
> 7020. The required upper frequency limit is maybe 20 MHz. The FPGA
> will have the usual, 48 bit or so, phase accumulator and sine lookup
> stuff clocked at maybe 100 MHz. The FPGA drives a fast DAC which in
> turn drives an LC lowpass filter and a comparator. Standard stuff.
> 
> But could such a clock be generated entirely inside the FPGA?
> 
> Just using the MSB of the DDS phase accumulator works, but it will
> have one full clock, 10 ns p-p, of jitter. That will be ugly at 20
> MHz. I've got to look into some sort of outboard analog filtering to
> clean up that single-bit clock, but I'm not optimistic. DDS is just
> too weird.
> 
> Do you suppose that one of the FPGA PLLs be used to clean up the DDS
> clock, scrub the jitter somehow? That could maybe be used over a
> modest range, octave maybe, followed by some dividers.
> 
> Any other ideas for making a programmable-frequency clock with DDS
> sort of resolution, but without all that outboard analog stuff?
> 
> I've been playing with sorta DDS in LT Spice, using a quantizer to
> approximate the DDS accumulator and DAC, but that's obviously not the
> best tool for this.
> 

you might be able to do something with the clock manager PLL, it does have 
a jitter filter mode but I haven't had any reason to look at how it works

other trickery you could do is 

use an DDR output flop to get double resolution or more with a faster clock
use some trickery with pll and serdes output 

-Lasse

On 04/09/16 19:11, John Larkin wrote:

> Do you suppose that one of the FPGA PLLs be used to clean up the DDS
> clock, scrub the jitter somehow? That could maybe be used over a
> modest range, octave maybe, followed by some dividers.

*IIRC* you have to use the Xilinx clocking wizard (part
of ISE or Vivado), and the SERDES blocks' multipliers have
a jitter of 150-200ps.

On Sun, 04 Sep 2016 11:11:32 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

> I have a design that will use a DDS synthesizer to generate an internal
> trigger rate for a pulse generator. The chip will be a ZYNQ 7020. The
> required upper frequency limit is maybe 20 MHz. The FPGA will have the
> usual, 48 bit or so, phase accumulator and sine lookup stuff clocked at
> maybe 100 MHz. The FPGA drives a fast DAC which in turn drives an LC
> lowpass filter and a comparator. Standard stuff.
> 
> But could such a clock be generated entirely inside the FPGA?
> 
> Just using the MSB of the DDS phase accumulator works, but it will have
> one full clock, 10 ns p-p, of jitter. That will be ugly at 20 MHz. I've
> got to look into some sort of outboard analog filtering to clean up that
> single-bit clock, but I'm not optimistic. DDS is just too weird.
> 
> Do you suppose that one of the FPGA PLLs be used to clean up the DDS
> clock, scrub the jitter somehow? That could maybe be used over a modest
> range, octave maybe, followed by some dividers.
> 
> Any other ideas for making a programmable-frequency clock with DDS sort
> of resolution, but without all that outboard analog stuff?
> 
> I've been playing with sorta DDS in LT Spice, using a quantizer to
> approximate the DDS accumulator and DAC, but that's obviously not the
> best tool for this.

I sat in on a seminar on using FPGAs in comms circuits once, a long time 
ago.  I made some comment that essentially boiled down to "trust the FPGA 
clock to not jitter", and was hooted down by the entire audience.

I haven't forgotten...

-- 
Tim Wescott
Control systems, embedded software and circuit design
I'm looking for work!  See my website if you're interested
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Maybe you get a better jitter than the MSB by using an iodelay oscillator. Never done this, but xapp872 describes it.

On 9/4/2016 3:13 PM, Mike Perkins wrote:
> On 04/09/2016 19:11, John Larkin wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have a design that will use a DDS synthesizer to generate an
>> internal trigger rate for a pulse generator. The chip will be a ZYNQ
>> 7020. The required upper frequency limit is maybe 20 MHz. The FPGA
>> will have the usual, 48 bit or so, phase accumulator and sine lookup
>> stuff clocked at maybe 100 MHz. The FPGA drives a fast DAC which in
>> turn drives an LC lowpass filter and a comparator. Standard stuff.
>>
>> But could such a clock be generated entirely inside the FPGA?
>>
>> Just using the MSB of the DDS phase accumulator works, but it will
>> have one full clock, 10 ns p-p, of jitter. That will be ugly at 20
>> MHz. I've got to look into some sort of outboard analog filtering to
>> clean up that single-bit clock, but I'm not optimistic. DDS is just
>> too weird.
>>
>> Do you suppose that one of the FPGA PLLs be used to clean up the DDS
>> clock, scrub the jitter somehow? That could maybe be used over a
>> modest range, octave maybe, followed by some dividers.
>
> That isn't how FPGA PLLs work. They add jitter rather than removing it!

Aren't you thinking of a digital PLL?  The PLL in FPGAs is typically a 
standard analog PLL and so *would* remove jitter.


>> Any other ideas for making a programmable-frequency clock with DDS
>> sort of resolution, but without all that outboard analog stuff?
>>
>> I've been playing with sorta DDS in LT Spice, using a quantizer to
>> approximate the DDS accumulator and DAC, but that's obviously not the
>> best tool for this.
>
> The jitter of a clock derived from within a FPGA would simply be related
> to the clock frequency used.
>
> If you use a 250MHz clock, as per the max frequency of many cheap FPGAs,
> then jitter will be 4ns (+ a small bit).

Yes, you are clearly thinking of a digital PLL based on the digital 
fabric of the FPGA.  I assume John was talking about the dedicated PLLs 
found in most FPGAS.


> What jitter spec are you looking for? What is the range of frequencies
> you require?
>
> Would a VCO / PLL be a better bet to filter the digital jitter, using
> the MSB of your phase accumulator as the reference?
>


-- 

Rick C

On 05/09/2016 11:57, rickman wrote:
> On 9/4/2016 3:13 PM, Mike Perkins wrote:
>> On 04/09/2016 19:11, John Larkin wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a design that will use a DDS synthesizer to generate an
>>> internal trigger rate for a pulse generator. The chip will be a ZYNQ
>>> 7020. The required upper frequency limit is maybe 20 MHz. The FPGA
>>> will have the usual, 48 bit or so, phase accumulator and sine lookup
>>> stuff clocked at maybe 100 MHz. The FPGA drives a fast DAC which in
>>> turn drives an LC lowpass filter and a comparator. Standard stuff.
>>>
>>> But could such a clock be generated entirely inside the FPGA?
>>>
>>> Just using the MSB of the DDS phase accumulator works, but it will
>>> have one full clock, 10 ns p-p, of jitter. That will be ugly at 20
>>> MHz. I've got to look into some sort of outboard analog filtering to
>>> clean up that single-bit clock, but I'm not optimistic. DDS is just
>>> too weird.
>>>
>>> Do you suppose that one of the FPGA PLLs be used to clean up the DDS
>>> clock, scrub the jitter somehow? That could maybe be used over a
>>> modest range, octave maybe, followed by some dividers.
>>
>> That isn't how FPGA PLLs work. They add jitter rather than removing it!
>
> Aren't you thinking of a digital PLL?  The PLL in FPGAs is typically a
> standard analog PLL and so *would* remove jitter.
>
>
>>> Any other ideas for making a programmable-frequency clock with DDS
>>> sort of resolution, but without all that outboard analog stuff?
>>>
>>> I've been playing with sorta DDS in LT Spice, using a quantizer to
>>> approximate the DDS accumulator and DAC, but that's obviously not the
>>> best tool for this.
>>
>> The jitter of a clock derived from within a FPGA would simply be related
>> to the clock frequency used.
>>
>> If you use a 250MHz clock, as per the max frequency of many cheap FPGAs,
>> then jitter will be 4ns (+ a small bit).
>
> Yes, you are clearly thinking of a digital PLL based on the digital
> fabric of the FPGA.  I assume John was talking about the dedicated PLLs
> found in most FPGAS.

Most of my experience is with Xilinx who I don't believe use analogue PLLs.

Most FPGA PLLs are based on a variable length ring of gates which will 
have jitter as gates are switched in and out of the loop.

Can you provide an example of a truly analogue PLL in a mainstream FPGA?

-- 
Mike Perkins
Video Solutions Ltd
www.videosolutions.ltd.uk

On Sun, 04 Sep 2016 11:11:32 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

> I have a design that will use a DDS synthesizer to generate an
> internal trigger rate for a pulse generator. The chip will be a ZYNQ
> 7020. The required upper frequency limit is maybe 20 MHz. The FPGA
> will have the usual, 48 bit or so, phase accumulator and sine lookup
> stuff clocked at maybe 100 MHz. The FPGA drives a fast DAC which in
> turn drives an LC lowpass filter and a comparator. Standard stuff.
> 
> But could such a clock be generated entirely inside the FPGA?
> 
> Just using the MSB of the DDS phase accumulator works, but it will
> have one full clock, 10 ns p-p, of jitter. That will be ugly at 20
> MHz. I've got to look into some sort of outboard analog filtering to
> clean up that single-bit clock, but I'm not optimistic. DDS is just
> too weird.
> 
> Do you suppose that one of the FPGA PLLs be used to clean up the DDS
> clock, scrub the jitter somehow? That could maybe be used over a
> modest range, octave maybe, followed by some dividers.
> 
> Any other ideas for making a programmable-frequency clock with DDS
> sort of resolution, but without all that outboard analog stuff?
> 
> I've been playing with sorta DDS in LT Spice, using a quantizer to
> approximate the DDS accumulator and DAC, but that's obviously not the
> best tool for this.


Changing from a Zynq 7020 to a '030 or '015 would give you transceivers 
(GTX or GTP, respectively).  This allows you to position the output 
transitions with much more precision.
This would reduce your purely digital DDS jitter from 10ns p-p down to 
less than 100ps p-p (for the '030 GTX in mid-speed grade) or 160ps p-p 
(for the '015 GTP in the fastest speed grade or ~270ps in the slowest 
speed grade).

IOW, the '015 gives you about a 40 times reduction in p-p jitter for 
about the same cost as the '020.
Plus, the higher effective sampling rate changes the spectral 
characteristics of the jitter and you will find it easier to locate a 
clean band in which to position your output signal.

You might be tempted to use one of the onboard PLLs to clean this up, but 
they generate about that amount of jitter all by themselves, so there's 
probably not much net gain in doing that (along with some pitfalls).


The transceivers have another advantage - they have independent power 
supplies and PLLs so you won't have activity in the FPGA fabric causing 
output jitter as you do with normal logic outputs.


I'm sure you (or someone in your company) will know how to connect up a 
DDS to a transceiver to do this.  Ask if you need hints.

Regards,
Allan