requirement for PC for VHDL design

Hi all,


I am thinking to buy a new PC (laptop, ubuntu).


One of the things I want to do more in the future is FPGA design. I 
currently do very simple projects and I notice that with the 4 GB of RAM 
I have in the laptop I currently use, that is already an issue.

And I want to try out soft-cores in the future.


What would one see as requirements for a PC for FPGA design for a hobbyist?
I guess memory is the main issue. Or not?



Kristoff

On 9/18/2016 9:17 AM, kristoff wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>
> I am thinking to buy a new PC (laptop, ubuntu).
>
>
> One of the things I want to do more in the future is FPGA design. I
> currently do very simple projects and I notice that with the 4 GB of RAM
> I have in the laptop I currently use, that is already an issue.
>
> And I want to try out soft-cores in the future.
>
>
> What would one see as requirements for a PC for FPGA design for a hobbyist?
> I guess memory is the main issue. Or not?
>
>
>
> Kristoff
>
>
You can get some very powerful machines for not too much money. I would 
get a decent I7 machine with lots of memory, that way it will be useful 
for a long time. If you are low on money, there are some choices 
available for a lot less, but get the fastest high memory machine you 
can afford and you won't suffer from regret.

Although a lesser machine might do, in the long run one ends regretting 
the choice. As an example I was recently working on the ep32 CPU a zero 
address CPU and found  that with Windows 10 64 bit some of the older 
software used to generate programs for it would not work right, what 
ended working right was when I used VMware virtual CPU running Windows 7 
32 bits then everything worked flawlessly. Had my machine been not 
capable of running VMware well the issues would not have been resolved.

My FPGA machine uses an I7 at 3.4GHz, 24GB of RAM, and a 512GB SSD drive 
for the OS and virtual partitions, it can handle anything I throw at it.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

On 18/09/16 18:05, Cecil Bayona wrote:
> On 9/18/2016 9:17 AM, kristoff wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>> I am thinking to buy a new PC (laptop, ubuntu).
>>
>>
>> One of the things I want to do more in the future is FPGA design. I
>> currently do very simple projects and I notice that with the 4 GB of RAM
>> I have in the laptop I currently use, that is already an issue.
>>

If you can get a stationary machine, do so - it will be much more 
cost-effective when you need a powerful system.

Modern FPGA tools should be quite good at using multiple cores.  And 
they are /very/ good at using memory - get as much as you can afford. 
Portables are often very limited in their memory - these days I see a 
lot of laptops that come with 4, 6 or 8 GB and don't let you upgrade at 
all.  And laptops all have tiny little screens - even the biggest ones 
are tiny.  A nice big monitor at 2560x1440 is pretty cheap these days, 
and a lot better to work with than a laptop screen.

>> And I want to try out soft-cores in the future.
>>
>>
>> What would one see as requirements for a PC for FPGA design for a
>> hobbyist?
>> I guess memory is the main issue. Or not?
>>
>>
>>
>> Kristoff
>>
>>
> You can get some very powerful machines for not too much money. I would
> get a decent I7 machine with lots of memory, that way it will be useful
> for a long time. If you are low on money, there are some choices
> available for a lot less, but get the fastest high memory machine you
> can afford and you won't suffer from regret.
>
> Although a lesser machine might do, in the long run one ends regretting
> the choice. As an example I was recently working on the ep32 CPU a zero
> address CPU and found  that with Windows 10 64 bit some of the older
> software used to generate programs for it would not work right, what
> ended working right was when I used VMware virtual CPU running Windows 7
> 32 bits then everything worked flawlessly. Had my machine been not
> capable of running VMware well the issues would not have been resolved.

He is running Ubuntu, so will have different issues (some things will be 
easier, some things harder).  But having plenty of memory for running 
virtual machines is definitely a good idea (though I'd recommend 
VirtualBox over VMware).

>
> My FPGA machine uses an I7 at 3.4GHz, 24GB of RAM, and a 512GB SSD drive
> for the OS and virtual partitions, it can handle anything I throw at it.
>

Don't bother with the SSD unless you have more money left over, or need 
to boot the machine regularly.  He is running Linux - with enough memory 
(in comparison to file sizes), disk speed is of little relevance as the 
OS uses memory for cache.  If you are getting an SSD, though, make sure 
it is at least 200 GB - below that size, most of them are quite poor.

On 9/18/2016 12:24 PM, David Brown wrote:
> On 18/09/16 18:05, Cecil Bayona wrote:
>> On 9/18/2016 9:17 AM, kristoff wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>> I am thinking to buy a new PC (laptop, ubuntu).
>>>
>>>
>>> One of the things I want to do more in the future is FPGA design. I
>>> currently do very simple projects and I notice that with the 4 GB of RAM
>>> I have in the laptop I currently use, that is already an issue.
>>>
>
> If you can get a stationary machine, do so - it will be much more
> cost-effective when you need a powerful system.
>
> Modern FPGA tools should be quite good at using multiple cores.  And
> they are /very/ good at using memory - get as much as you can afford.
> Portables are often very limited in their memory - these days I see a
> lot of laptops that come with 4, 6 or 8 GB and don't let you upgrade at
> all.  And laptops all have tiny little screens - even the biggest ones
> are tiny.  A nice big monitor at 2560x1440 is pretty cheap these days,
> and a lot better to work with than a laptop screen.
>
>>> And I want to try out soft-cores in the future.
>>>
>>>
>>> What would one see as requirements for a PC for FPGA design for a
>>> hobbyist?
>>> I guess memory is the main issue. Or not?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kristoff
>>>
>>>
>> You can get some very powerful machines for not too much money. I would
>> get a decent I7 machine with lots of memory, that way it will be useful
>> for a long time. If you are low on money, there are some choices
>> available for a lot less, but get the fastest high memory machine you
>> can afford and you won't suffer from regret.
>>
>> Although a lesser machine might do, in the long run one ends regretting
>> the choice. As an example I was recently working on the ep32 CPU a zero
>> address CPU and found  that with Windows 10 64 bit some of the older
>> software used to generate programs for it would not work right, what
>> ended working right was when I used VMware virtual CPU running Windows 7
>> 32 bits then everything worked flawlessly. Had my machine been not
>> capable of running VMware well the issues would not have been resolved.
>
> He is running Ubuntu, so will have different issues (some things will be
> easier, some things harder).  But having plenty of memory for running
> virtual machines is definitely a good idea (though I'd recommend
> VirtualBox over VMware).

That is the beauty of having options, I used to use VirtualBox myself 
but after a bout where VirtualBox removed the licenses to Windows 10 out 
of the blue I switched to VMware.

I installed Windows 7 and used up a license, then upgraded it to Windows 
10 and all was fine for a while, then on one of the upgrades to 
VirtualBox it removed the licenses to Windows 10 and several Partitions 
that had Windows Server that I used for school also lost their licenses, 
that was it, and away it went.

>
>>
>> My FPGA machine uses an I7 at 3.4GHz, 24GB of RAM, and a 512GB SSD drive
>> for the OS and virtual partitions, it can handle anything I throw at it.
>>
>
> Don't bother with the SSD unless you have more money left over, or need
> to boot the machine regularly.  He is running Linux - with enough memory
> (in comparison to file sizes), disk speed is of little relevance as the
> OS uses memory for cache.  If you are getting an SSD, though, make sure
> it is at least 200 GB - below that size, most of them are quite poor.
>
>
SSD makes a huge improvement in OS booting, application startup, and 
Virtual Partition speed, they are cheap now you can get a 256GB  SSD for 
$50 when on sale.

Myself I'm pondering about switching to Linux myself, I have 2 PCs 
running Mint Linux and I have not had any problems with them in years, 
the same cannot be said of Windows.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

On 18/09/16 20:44, Cecil Bayona wrote:
> On 9/18/2016 12:24 PM, David Brown wrote:
>> On 18/09/16 18:05, Cecil Bayona wrote:
>>> On 9/18/2016 9:17 AM, kristoff wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am thinking to buy a new PC (laptop, ubuntu).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> One of the things I want to do more in the future is FPGA design. I
>>>> currently do very simple projects and I notice that with the 4 GB of
>>>> RAM
>>>> I have in the laptop I currently use, that is already an issue.
>>>>
>>
>> If you can get a stationary machine, do so - it will be much more
>> cost-effective when you need a powerful system.
>>
>> Modern FPGA tools should be quite good at using multiple cores.  And
>> they are /very/ good at using memory - get as much as you can afford.
>> Portables are often very limited in their memory - these days I see a
>> lot of laptops that come with 4, 6 or 8 GB and don't let you upgrade at
>> all.  And laptops all have tiny little screens - even the biggest ones
>> are tiny.  A nice big monitor at 2560x1440 is pretty cheap these days,
>> and a lot better to work with than a laptop screen.
>>
>>>> And I want to try out soft-cores in the future.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What would one see as requirements for a PC for FPGA design for a
>>>> hobbyist?
>>>> I guess memory is the main issue. Or not?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kristoff
>>>>
>>>>
>>> You can get some very powerful machines for not too much money. I would
>>> get a decent I7 machine with lots of memory, that way it will be useful
>>> for a long time. If you are low on money, there are some choices
>>> available for a lot less, but get the fastest high memory machine you
>>> can afford and you won't suffer from regret.
>>>
>>> Although a lesser machine might do, in the long run one ends regretting
>>> the choice. As an example I was recently working on the ep32 CPU a zero
>>> address CPU and found  that with Windows 10 64 bit some of the older
>>> software used to generate programs for it would not work right, what
>>> ended working right was when I used VMware virtual CPU running Windows 7
>>> 32 bits then everything worked flawlessly. Had my machine been not
>>> capable of running VMware well the issues would not have been resolved.
>>
>> He is running Ubuntu, so will have different issues (some things will be
>> easier, some things harder).  But having plenty of memory for running
>> virtual machines is definitely a good idea (though I'd recommend
>> VirtualBox over VMware).
>
> That is the beauty of having options, I used to use VirtualBox myself
> but after a bout where VirtualBox removed the licenses to Windows 10 out
> of the blue I switched to VMware.
>
> I installed Windows 7 and used up a license, then upgraded it to Windows
> 10 and all was fine for a while, then on one of the upgrades to
> VirtualBox it removed the licenses to Windows 10 and several Partitions
> that had Windows Server that I used for school also lost their licenses,
> that was it, and away it went.
>

I have little experience with Windows 10, and none of it using virtual 
machines - so I can't help you here.

But you are right about the beauty of choice.

>>
>>>
>>> My FPGA machine uses an I7 at 3.4GHz, 24GB of RAM, and a 512GB SSD drive
>>> for the OS and virtual partitions, it can handle anything I throw at it.
>>>
>>
>> Don't bother with the SSD unless you have more money left over, or need
>> to boot the machine regularly.  He is running Linux - with enough memory
>> (in comparison to file sizes), disk speed is of little relevance as the
>> OS uses memory for cache.  If you are getting an SSD, though, make sure
>> it is at least 200 GB - below that size, most of them are quite poor.
>>
>>
> SSD makes a huge improvement in OS booting, application startup, and
> Virtual Partition speed, they are cheap now you can get a 256GB  SSD for
> $50 when on sale.

It makes a difference to booting - but I boot my machines perhaps once 
every two months, and if it takes 2 minutes instead of 1 minute, I don't 
mind.  And on Linux, which is hugely more efficient than Windows in the 
way it caches files, it might make a slight difference to the first time 
you start an application - but not after that.

If you have a very large working set (i.e., a lot of big files that you 
are reading and writing at once), so that the data can't be cached in 
your ram, then an SSD will often be faster.  But even then, a couple of 
decent HD's in raid (Linux supports top-class software raid) will often 
give you similar speed.

Of course, an SSD is never a /bad/ thing - but if you have a choice of 
an SSD or more ram, then more ram is usually the best use of your money.

It is different on a laptop, where the low power and robustness of the 
SSD helps, and where you do want to reboot regularly and move ram data 
onto disk for hibernation.

And on Windows, where the OS loads entire application exe's and dll's 
rather than just the bits you need, and keeps re-loading the files it 
has just read, then an SSD can make a significant difference.  (To be 
fair on Windows, Win 10 is better than previous generations at using 
memory for cache.)

>
> Myself I'm pondering about switching to Linux myself, I have 2 PCs
> running Mint Linux and I have not had any problems with them in years,
> the same cannot be said of Windows.
>

On 9/18/2016 10:17 AM, kristoff wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>
> I am thinking to buy a new PC (laptop, ubuntu).
>
>
> One of the things I want to do more in the future is FPGA design. I
> currently do very simple projects and I notice that with the 4 GB of RAM
> I have in the laptop I currently use, that is already an issue.
>
> And I want to try out soft-cores in the future.
>
>
> What would one see as requirements for a PC for FPGA design for a hobbyist?
> I guess memory is the main issue. Or not?

My main concern when it comes to FPGAs is simulation time.  I spend much 
more time simulating than I do creating a bit stream.  Simulators are 
speed crippled unless you pay for a faster version.  So I'm not sure how 
much the speed of your CPU matters.

Memory is always important.  I have 16 GB in my laptop and tend to push 
that limit just by keeping many browser windows and tabs open.  So at a 
minimum get 16 GB and more if you want.

Otherwise I think you will never notice the difference between the 
various processor speeds, at least not as much difference as the price 
would seem to indicate.

Don't sweat it.  Before you spend any money on a new laptop, just get 
familiar with the tools and the process.  Then figure out if you want to 
pay for new hardware.

-- 

Rick C

On Sunday, September 18, 2016 at 8:24:14 PM UTC+3, David Brown wrote:
>=20
> Modern FPGA tools should be quite good at using multiple cores.  And=20
> they are /very/ good at using memory - get as much as you can afford.=20

Both of the statements above are wrong.

Modern FPGA tools can occupy multiple cores, but it does not translate into=
 significant improvements in synthesis or P&R speed.
Two cores are at best 15% faster than one core. Four cores over two - hardl=
y noticeable at all.
As to memory, each FPGA device requires certain amount of memory for P&R. W=
hen you have that much then getting more does not help. If you have less - =
you better don't start, it would be too slow. The said "certain amount" is =
typically specified in the documentation of your tools.

For example, Altera Quartus 15.1 (devices that are likely to matter for hob=
byist):
Cyclone IV E - 512 MB to 1.5 GB
Cyclone IV GX - 512 MB to 2 GB
Cyclone V - 6-8 GB=20
MAX II/MAX V - 512 MB
MAX 10 - 512 MB - 2 GB

So, >2 cores and >8 GB of RAM matter *only* if one wants to run several com=
pilations simultaneously.

In money-limited situation the choice between=20
a) 8 GB of RAM + HDD
b) 16 GB of RAM + 256 GB SSD
is very obvious - take b)
That assumes that you are also buying external HDD for backups and for rare=
ly used staff, but you'll want it anyway, don't you?

On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 12:36:42 PM UTC+3, already...@yahoo.com w=
rote:
> On Sunday, September 18, 2016 at 8:24:14 PM UTC+3, David Brown wrote:
> >=20
> > Modern FPGA tools should be quite good at using multiple cores.  And=20
> > they are /very/ good at using memory - get as much as you can afford.=
=20
>=20
> Both of the statements above are wrong.
>=20
> Modern FPGA tools can occupy multiple cores, but it does not translate in=
to significant improvements in synthesis or P&R speed.
> Two cores are at best 15% faster than one core. Four cores over two - har=
dly noticeable at all.
> As to memory, each FPGA device requires certain amount of memory for P&R.=
 When you have that much then getting more does not help. If you have less =
- you better don't start, it would be too slow. The said "certain amount" i=
s typically specified in the documentation of your tools.
>=20
> For example, Altera Quartus 15.1 (devices that are likely to matter for h=
obbyist):
> Cyclone IV E - 512 MB to 1.5 GB
> Cyclone IV GX - 512 MB to 2 GB
> Cyclone V - 6-8 GB=20
> MAX II/MAX V - 512 MB
> MAX 10 - 512 MB - 2 GB
>=20
> So, >2 cores and >8 GB of RAM matter *only* if one wants to run several c=
ompilations simultaneously.
>=20
> In money-limited situation the choice between=20
> a) 8 GB of RAM + HDD
> b) 16 GB of RAM + 256 GB SSD
> is very obvious - take b)
> That assumes that you are also buying external HDD for backups and for ra=
rely used staff, but you'll want it anyway, don't you?

Mistake above. I meant to say:
a) 16 GB of RAM + HDD
b) 8 GB of RAM + 256 GB SSD

On Sunday, September 18, 2016 at 5:17:36 PM UTC+3, kristoff wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> 
> I am thinking to buy a new PC (laptop, ubuntu).
>

Ubuntu is o.k. for Xilinx Vivado
For Altera Quartus, it is not supported. It does not mean that it wouldn't work at the end, but initially it would be a pain to setup, relatively to Win7 or to Red Hat related Linux distros.

> 
> One of the things I want to do more in the future is FPGA design. I 
> currently do very simple projects and I notice that with the 4 GB of RAM 
> I have in the laptop I currently use, that is already an issue.
> 
> And I want to try out soft-cores in the future.

Soft cores don't add to RAM requirements on HW development side.

> 
> 
> What would one see as requirements for a PC for FPGA design for a hobbyist?
> I guess memory is the main issue. Or not?
> 
> 
> 
> Kristoff

Be very careful with your choice of laptop regarding cooling. Even the very fast ones are designed to only be very fast for short periods, although monster gaming laptops are an obvious exception. Most of us here have laptops but we synthesize on the "farm" due to overheating. My fan was running almost constantly until I stripped it down and replaced the dried up and useless thermal paste on the processor.

Colin.