We want to power on a Virtex II xc2v3000 FPGA (Xilinx). The core power seems to work correctly (VccInt = 1.5V ; I<100mA), but VccAux and VccO are asking too much current (> 1.5A) for a long time. This occurs approximatively 1 second after the power is on. We have a current limitation power supply, so the VccAux/VccO voltage fall at nearly 1.5V, that is to say that the FPGA needs very much than 1.5A .. Does anybody ever had this kind of issue ? Or do you know a possible cause of this event ?
Power on problems
Started by ●September 10, 2003
Reply by ●September 10, 20032003-09-10
etrac, Sounds broken. Virtex II and II Pro have no power on current surges whatsoever. Are you sure that you are not programming it to do something? Like all IOs are DCI HSTL input terminations (~54 mW each IO, 17 mA)? One hundred of these IOs programmed this way makes ~ 1.7 amperes, and 5.4 watts. The delay one one second is billions of times faster than the logic works, so it is unlikely it is the part doing something, it is more likely programming has just completed..... Open a hotline case. Austin etrac wrote:> We want to power on a Virtex II xc2v3000 FPGA (Xilinx). The core power > seems to work correctly (VccInt = 1.5V ; I<100mA), but VccAux and VccO > are asking too much current (> 1.5A) for a long time. This occurs > approximatively 1 second after the power is on. > We have a current limitation power supply, so the VccAux/VccO voltage > fall at nearly 1.5V, that is to say that the FPGA needs very much than > 1.5A .. > > Does anybody ever had this kind of issue ? Or do you know a possible > cause of this event ?
Reply by ●September 15, 20032003-09-15
At poweron I think the FPGA is not programmed ! It is in boundary scan mode (pins M0-M1-M2), but I can't access to it with JTAG because the voltage isn't sufficient. So I'm sure the FPGA is free ! There are some other components on the board, such as DSPs, they have independant power supplys, but they are connected on some FPGA IOs. Do you think they can disturb the FPGA at poweron ? My meaning was that the FPGA IOs were tristated at poweron, nevertheless could they be active when core or IO voltage are not yet stabilized ? etrac Austin Lesea <Austin.Lesea@xilinx.com> wrote in message news:<3F5F3C37.9758AF5F@xilinx.com>...> etrac, > > Sounds broken. > > Virtex II and II Pro have no power on current surges whatsoever. > > Are you sure that you are not programming it to do something? Like all > IOs are DCI HSTL input terminations (~54 mW each IO, 17 mA)? One hundred > of these IOs programmed this way makes ~ 1.7 amperes, and 5.4 watts. > > The delay one one second is billions of times faster than the logic works, > so it is unlikely it is the part doing something, it is more likely > programming has just completed..... > > Open a hotline case. > > Austin > > etrac wrote: > > > We want to power on a Virtex II xc2v3000 FPGA (Xilinx). The core power > > seems to work correctly (VccInt = 1.5V ; I<100mA), but VccAux and VccO > > are asking too much current (> 1.5A) for a long time. This occurs > > approximatively 1 second after the power is on. > > We have a current limitation power supply, so the VccAux/VccO voltage > > fall at nearly 1.5V, that is to say that the FPGA needs very much than > > 1.5A .. > > > > Does anybody ever had this kind of issue ? Or do you know a possible > > cause of this event ?
Reply by ●October 15, 20032003-10-15
Hi, We have found the problem and this might interest somebody here so I explain the reasons of the voltage falling : It was simply because we put too many bypassing capacitors around the FPGA ! The virtex II datasheet is asking for many capacitors to have good linearity in the fpga voltages, but our power supply was not enough strong to support the current when we power on the board. Etrac. etraq@yahoo.fr (etrac) wrote in message news:<c99b95c7.0309150215.32a211e8@posting.google.com>...> At poweron I think the FPGA is not programmed ! It is in boundary scan > mode (pins M0-M1-M2), but I can't access to it with JTAG because the > voltage isn't sufficient. So I'm sure the FPGA is free ! > > There are some other components on the board, such as DSPs, they have > independant power supplys, but they are connected on some FPGA IOs. Do > you think they can disturb the FPGA at poweron ? My meaning was that > the FPGA IOs were tristated at poweron, nevertheless could they be > active when core or IO voltage are not yet stabilized ? > > etrac > > Austin Lesea <Austin.Lesea@xilinx.com> wrote in message news:<3F5F3C37.9758AF5F@xilinx.com>... > > etrac, > > > > Sounds broken. > > > > Virtex II and II Pro have no power on current surges whatsoever. > > > > Are you sure that you are not programming it to do something? Like all > > IOs are DCI HSTL input terminations (~54 mW each IO, 17 mA)? One hundred > > of these IOs programmed this way makes ~ 1.7 amperes, and 5.4 watts. > > > > The delay one one second is billions of times faster than the logic works, > > so it is unlikely it is the part doing something, it is more likely > > programming has just completed..... > > > > Open a hotline case. > > > > Austin > > > > etrac wrote: > > > > > We want to power on a Virtex II xc2v3000 FPGA (Xilinx). The core power > > > seems to work correctly (VccInt = 1.5V ; I<100mA), but VccAux and VccO > > > are asking too much current (> 1.5A) for a long time. This occurs > > > approximatively 1 second after the power is on. > > > We have a current limitation power supply, so the VccAux/VccO voltage > > > fall at nearly 1.5V, that is to say that the FPGA needs very much than > > > 1.5A .. > > > > > > Does anybody ever had this kind of issue ? Or do you know a possible > > > cause of this event ?
Reply by ●October 15, 20032003-10-15
etrac wrote:> > Hi, > We have found the problem and this might interest somebody here so I > explain the reasons of the voltage falling : It was simply because we > put too many bypassing capacitors around the FPGA ! The virtex II > datasheet is asking for many capacitors to have good linearity in the > fpga voltages, but our power supply was not enough strong to support > the current when we power on the board. > > Etrac. > > > etrac wrote: > > > > > > > We want to power on a Virtex II xc2v3000 FPGA (Xilinx). The core power > > > > seems to work correctly (VccInt = 1.5V ; I<100mA), but VccAux and VccO > > > > are asking too much current (> 1.5A) for a long time. This occurs > > > > approximatively 1 second after the power is on. > > > > We have a current limitation power supply, so the VccAux/VccO voltage > > > > fall at nearly 1.5V, that is to say that the FPGA needs very much than > > > > 1.5A ..This does not quite 'gel' - you are saying lowering the Total C alone solved the issue ? That suggests a dV/dT limit, but times in the order of 1 second ? It may be a power-sequencing effect, which total C would affect. -jg
Reply by ●October 20, 20032003-10-20
Jim Granville <jim.granville@designtools.co.nz> wrote in message news:<3F8DBF2B.2595@designtools.co.nz>...> etrac wrote: > > > > Hi, > > We have found the problem and this might interest somebody here so I > > explain the reasons of the voltage falling : It was simply because we > > put too many bypassing capacitors around the FPGA ! The virtex II > > datasheet is asking for many capacitors to have good linearity in the > > fpga voltages, but our power supply was not enough strong to support > > the current when we power on the board. > > > > Etrac. > > > > etrac wrote: > > > > > > > > > We want to power on a Virtex II xc2v3000 FPGA (Xilinx). The core power > > > > > seems to work correctly (VccInt = 1.5V ; I<100mA), but VccAux and VccO > > > > > are asking too much current (> 1.5A) for a long time. This occurs > > > > > approximatively 1 second after the power is on. > > > > > We have a current limitation power supply, so the VccAux/VccO voltage > > > > > fall at nearly 1.5V, that is to say that the FPGA needs very much than > > > > > 1.5A .. > > This does not quite 'gel' - you are saying lowering the Total C alone > solved the issue ? > > That suggests a dV/dT limit, but times in the order of 1 second ? > It may be a power-sequencing effect, which total C would affect. > > -jgOur power supply is current limited (2 Amps), and at poweron capacitors were asking too many current for the power supply. So we were in overcurrent mode. That was the same problem with our laboratory power supplies, with a current limitation .. Etrac
Reply by ●October 20, 20032003-10-20
etrac wrote:> > Jim Granville <jim.granville@designtools.co.nz> wrote in message news:<3F8DBF2B.2595@designtools.co.nz>... > > etrac wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > We have found the problem and this might interest somebody here so I > > > explain the reasons of the voltage falling : It was simply because we > > > put too many bypassing capacitors around the FPGA ! The virtex II > > > datasheet is asking for many capacitors to have good linearity in the > > > fpga voltages, but our power supply was not enough strong to support > > > the current when we power on the board. > > > > > > Etrac. > > > > > etrac wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > We want to power on a Virtex II xc2v3000 FPGA (Xilinx). The core power > > > > > > seems to work correctly (VccInt = 1.5V ; I<100mA), but VccAux and VccO > > > > > > are asking too much current (> 1.5A) for a long time. This occurs > > > > > > approximatively 1 second after the power is on. > > > > > > We have a current limitation power supply, so the VccAux/VccO voltage > > > > > > fall at nearly 1.5V, that is to say that the FPGA needs very much than > > > > > > 1.5A .. > > > > This does not quite 'gel' - you are saying lowering the Total C alone > > solved the issue ? > > > > That suggests a dV/dT limit, but times in the order of 1 second ? > > It may be a power-sequencing effect, which total C would affect. > > > > -jg > > Our power supply is current limited (2 Amps), and at poweron > capacitors were asking too many current for the power supply. So we > were in overcurrent mode. That was the same problem with our > laboratory power supplies, with a current limitation .. > > EtracIsn't that a common mode during power on? Exactly what problem does this cause? Are you saying that the current causes a voltage foldback so that the rise is not monotonic? If so, your problem is not the capacitors, it is the foldback current limiting. I find it hard to imagine the caps on a board having more total capacitance than a power supply. But I guess you may be working with an on board DC/DC with 100 uF or less. -- Rick "rickman" Collins rick.collins@XYarius.com Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY removed. Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com 4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
Reply by ●November 15, 20032003-11-15
rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3F93E4A8.C68E3142@yahoo.com>...> etrac wrote: > > > > Jim Granville <jim.granville@designtools.co.nz> wrote in message news:<3F8DBF2B.2595@designtools.co.nz>... > > > etrac wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > We have found the problem and this might interest somebody here so I > > > > explain the reasons of the voltage falling : It was simply because we > > > > put too many bypassing capacitors around the FPGA ! The virtex II > > > > datasheet is asking for many capacitors to have good linearity in the > > > > fpga voltages, but our power supply was not enough strong to support > > > > the current when we power on the board. > > > > > > > > Etrac. > > > > > > etrac wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > We want to power on a Virtex II xc2v3000 FPGA (Xilinx). The core power > > > > > > > seems to work correctly (VccInt = 1.5V ; I<100mA), but VccAux and VccO > > > > > > > are asking too much current (> 1.5A) for a long time. This occurs > > > > > > > approximatively 1 second after the power is on. > > > > > > > We have a current limitation power supply, so the VccAux/VccO voltage > > > > > > > fall at nearly 1.5V, that is to say that the FPGA needs very much than > > > > > > > 1.5A .. > > > > > > This does not quite 'gel' - you are saying lowering the Total C alone > > > solved the issue ? > > > > > > That suggests a dV/dT limit, but times in the order of 1 second ? > > > It may be a power-sequencing effect, which total C would affect. > > > > > > -jg > > > > Our power supply is current limited (2 Amps), and at poweron > > capacitors were asking too many current for the power supply. So we > > were in overcurrent mode. That was the same problem with our > > laboratory power supplies, with a current limitation .. > > > > Etrac > > Isn't that a common mode during power on? Exactly what problem does > this cause? Are you saying that the current causes a voltage foldback > so that the rise is not monotonic? If so, your problem is not the > capacitors, it is the foldback current limiting. I find it hard to > imagine the caps on a board having more total capacitance than a power > supply. But I guess you may be working with an on board DC/DC with 100 > uF or less. > > -- > > Rick "rickman" CollinsWe use Motorola QuiccSupply products to power the FPGA, they have two protections : overcurrent protection and undervoltage lockout. The first limits the current, the second disables the power if the voltage is not in the good range (checked every 100ms). That's why if C is big the power supply can't raise the voltage quickly and the QuiccSupply goes in undervoltage lockout. That's true that if the Power supply doesn't have any undervoltage lockout capability we did not have such problems .. Nevertheless Virtex II documentation says that at power on, each supply line (VCCO VCCAUX and VCCINT) has to be stable quickly (< 200 ms if I remember well), otherwise the component will need more current to power on. So I think that having too many bypassing capacitors may affect the power on. Of course this event depends on the power supply used .. Etrac
Reply by ●November 17, 20032003-11-17
<50 ms. We do not test outside of 250 us to 50 ms, so do not use the part there unless you wish to chaacterize it's behavior. There is no high current behavior on Virtex II, II Pro, II Pro-X (10 Gbs Virtex II Pro announced today), Spartan III. Austin etrac wrote:> rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3F93E4A8.C68E3142@yahoo.com>... > > etrac wrote: > > > > > > Jim Granville <jim.granville@designtools.co.nz> wrote in message news:<3F8DBF2B.2595@designtools.co.nz>... > > > > etrac wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > We have found the problem and this might interest somebody here so I > > > > > explain the reasons of the voltage falling : It was simply because we > > > > > put too many bypassing capacitors around the FPGA ! The virtex II > > > > > datasheet is asking for many capacitors to have good linearity in the > > > > > fpga voltages, but our power supply was not enough strong to support > > > > > the current when we power on the board. > > > > > > > > > > Etrac. > > > > > > > etrac wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We want to power on a Virtex II xc2v3000 FPGA (Xilinx). The core power > > > > > > > > seems to work correctly (VccInt = 1.5V ; I<100mA), but VccAux and VccO > > > > > > > > are asking too much current (> 1.5A) for a long time. This occurs > > > > > > > > approximatively 1 second after the power is on. > > > > > > > > We have a current limitation power supply, so the VccAux/VccO voltage > > > > > > > > fall at nearly 1.5V, that is to say that the FPGA needs very much than > > > > > > > > 1.5A .. > > > > > > > > This does not quite 'gel' - you are saying lowering the Total C alone > > > > solved the issue ? > > > > > > > > That suggests a dV/dT limit, but times in the order of 1 second ? > > > > It may be a power-sequencing effect, which total C would affect. > > > > > > > > -jg > > > > > > Our power supply is current limited (2 Amps), and at poweron > > > capacitors were asking too many current for the power supply. So we > > > were in overcurrent mode. That was the same problem with our > > > laboratory power supplies, with a current limitation .. > > > > > > Etrac > > > > Isn't that a common mode during power on? Exactly what problem does > > this cause? Are you saying that the current causes a voltage foldback > > so that the rise is not monotonic? If so, your problem is not the > > capacitors, it is the foldback current limiting. I find it hard to > > imagine the caps on a board having more total capacitance than a power > > supply. But I guess you may be working with an on board DC/DC with 100 > > uF or less. > > > > -- > > > > Rick "rickman" Collins > > We use Motorola QuiccSupply products to power the FPGA, they have two > protections : overcurrent protection and undervoltage lockout. The > first limits the current, the second disables the power if the voltage > is not in the good range (checked every 100ms). That's why if C is big > the power supply can't raise the voltage quickly and the QuiccSupply > goes in undervoltage lockout. > > That's true that if the Power supply doesn't have any undervoltage > lockout capability we did not have such problems .. Nevertheless > Virtex II documentation says that at power on, each supply line (VCCO > VCCAUX and VCCINT) has to be stable quickly (< 200 ms if I remember > well), otherwise the component will need more current to power on. > So I think that having too many bypassing capacitors may affect the > power on. Of course this event depends on the power supply used .. > > Etrac
Reply by ●November 17, 20032003-11-17
etrac wrote:> > rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3F93E4A8.C68E3142@yahoo.com>... > > Isn't that a common mode during power on? Exactly what problem does > > this cause? Are you saying that the current causes a voltage foldback > > so that the rise is not monotonic? If so, your problem is not the > > capacitors, it is the foldback current limiting. I find it hard to > > imagine the caps on a board having more total capacitance than a power > > supply. But I guess you may be working with an on board DC/DC with 100 > > uF or less. > > > > -- > > > > Rick "rickman" Collins > > We use Motorola QuiccSupply products to power the FPGA, they have two > protections : overcurrent protection and undervoltage lockout. The > first limits the current, the second disables the power if the voltage > is not in the good range (checked every 100ms). That's why if C is big > the power supply can't raise the voltage quickly and the QuiccSupply > goes in undervoltage lockout. > > That's true that if the Power supply doesn't have any undervoltage > lockout capability we did not have such problems .. Nevertheless > Virtex II documentation says that at power on, each supply line (VCCO > VCCAUX and VCCINT) has to be stable quickly (< 200 ms if I remember > well), otherwise the component will need more current to power on. > So I think that having too many bypassing capacitors may affect the > power on. Of course this event depends on the power supply used .. > > EtracBut if you do the math with the magnitude of current, voltage and times you will find that it requires an *enormous* amount of capacitance to obstruct your ramp time. Using 5 volts, 2 Amps and 50 mS, I get 20,000 uF. Clearly anything in a typical range of capacitance (~100-200 uF) should not adversely impact your power on ramp unless all the supply current is going through the chips. Are the chips drawing enough current at power up that the supply is nearly current limited? -- Rick "rickman" Collins rick.collins@XYarius.com Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY removed. Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com 4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
