Regarding XC6216

Hi guyes ,
         Does any body have datasheet for XC6216 ?

My first answer is: look it up on google. You get 747 hits!
Question: Do you need any more?
The parts do not exist anymore, so why do you need the data sheet?

Peter Alfke, Xilinx

"H.Azmi" wrote:
> 
> Hi guyes ,
>          Does any body have datasheet for XC6216 ?

Peter Alfke <peter@xilinx.com> wrote in message news:<3F6F1C81.16801DD9@xilinx.com>...
> My first answer is: look it up on google. You get 747 hits!
> Question: Do you need any more?
> The parts do not exist anymore, so why do you need the data sheet?
> 
> Peter Alfke, Xilinx
> 
> "H.Azmi" wrote:
> > 
> > Hi guyes ,
> >          Does any body have datasheet for XC6216 ?

Hi Peter,

there are people who would like to have XC2616, I actually tried
to buy XC6216 development board at ebay (Ray Andraka was selling)
but I was too late :(

as much as I know XC6216 is the only Xilinx device that has full public
bitstream documentation (or had at least) also for XC6216 there is
free JERC6K JBits system inclusive Java sources still downloadable
from xilinx download site :)

so there are historic and educational reasons to have XC6216, if
I would have that board would use it for P&R tool testing, as
bitstream is known and array is relativly simple.

antti

> as much as I know XC6216 is the only Xilinx device that has full public
> bitstream documentation (or had at least) also for XC6216 there is
> free JERC6K JBits system inclusive Java sources still downloadable
> from xilinx download site :)
>
> so there are historic and educational reasons to have XC6216, if
> I would have that board would use it for P&R tool testing, as
> bitstream is known and array is relativly simple.
>

I still have a bag of XC6216s. I really wish Xilinx would publish the
bitstream for the  V2Pro. I don't get the logic any more the Pro has DES
encryption so if you want to keep your design secret you can.

Maybe it is time to start an open the bitstream project? Anyone got any good
ideas?

Steve

I understand the desire to have XC6216, but the fact is that these parts
are not available. Xilinx, the original manufacturer, does not have a
single part in inventory. (I tried to get one part, and failed!).
So this really is archeology.  Why do you want to spend mental energy on
something you cannot obtain. Why prolong the frustration ?  The part is
dead, because we could not find any volume customers. The baby died for
lack of a loving home outside academia.

If you give me a good reason, I may be able to find a data sheet, but I
will not go on a meaningless wild-goose chase...
Peter Alfke
=======================
Antti Lukats wrote:
> 
> Peter Alfke <peter@xilinx.com> wrote in message news:<3F6F1C81.16801DD9@xilinx.com>...
> > My first answer is: look it up on google. You get 747 hits!
> > Question: Do you need any more?
> > The parts do not exist anymore, so why do you need the data sheet?
> >
> > Peter Alfke, Xilinx
> >
> > "H.Azmi" wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi guyes ,
> > >          Does any body have datasheet for XC6216 ?
> 
> Hi Peter,
> 
> there are people who would like to have XC2616, I actually tried
> to buy XC6216 development board at ebay (Ray Andraka was selling)
> but I was too late :(
> 
> as much as I know XC6216 is the only Xilinx device that has full public
> bitstream documentation (or had at least) also for XC6216 there is
> free JERC6K JBits system inclusive Java sources still downloadable
> from xilinx download site :)
> 
> so there are historic and educational reasons to have XC6216, if
> I would have that board would use it for P&R tool testing, as
> bitstream is known and array is relativly simple.
> 
> antti

Antti Lukats wrote:
> as much as I know XC6216 is the only Xilinx device that has full
> public
> bitstream documentation (or had at least) also for XC6216 there is
> free JERC6K JBits system inclusive Java sources still downloadable
> from xilinx download site :)
>
> so there are historic and educational reasons to have XC6216, if
> I would have that board would use it for P&R tool testing, as
> bitstream is known and array is relativly simple.

Could you use the Virtual FPGA project on a modern device?

Peter Alfke <peter@xilinx.com> writes:
>
> "H.Azmi" wrote:
> >
> >          Does any body have datasheet for XC6216 ?

> My first answer is: look it up on google. You get 747 hits!

Of course that is just pages which have the 2 pieces of text "6216"
and "data sheet" (or wven "data" and "sheet" separate) on them. Of
course that does not have to be an data sheet for an 6216.

I once got a copy from: http://www.vcc.com/Papers/6200.pdf (at least
my bookmarks say that, in Jan 2001).


--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith
- hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware
  code generates the software, have you coded today?

"Steve Casselman" <sc_nospam@vcc.com> writes:

> > as much as I know XC6216 is the only Xilinx device that has full public
> > bitstream documentation (or had at least)
>
> I still have a bag of XC6216s. I really wish Xilinx would publish the
> bitstream for the  V2Pro.

Or even just the standard V2 if they want to keep the top of the line
secret (or have some contract with the PPC hard core people).


> I don't get the logic any more the Pro has DES
> encryption so if you want to keep your design secret you can.

That reason is now dead. But they still have an whole large bag of
others. Such crappy things like "binary compatibility hinders us
innovating". Of course any "binary compatible" market would exclude
all not compatible competitors, so maximal innovation simply does
not matter in that market. And yes this means 2 series (binary and
power), so perhaps take the older V1 designs for this (OK, that loses
DES)?


> Maybe it is time to start an open the bitstream project?

Get Xilinx to cooperate with not immediately profit generating (small)
user demands?

Sounds unlikely given present corporate un-culture. It is large
corporations serving (mainly) large-account large corporations, who
could not care for anything other than "what we do today n% more
efficient". Damn the small guys who want to do something different.
Mass manufacturing industry sucks.

Just look how long it take just to get them to deliver their tools for
Linux.


Hmmm, perhaps aim at someone else who wants to expand their lesser
market share?

Ask Altera how many design wins they got from their far earlier
Linux tool availability exploiting Xilinxes stubbornness. Perhaps
they will see public bitstream as an other step in regaining
marketshare.

Or perhaps ask the upcoming 3rd guy Lattice if they want an hot
"accelerator" feature into the market (gain mind share with all the
new entering people). OTOH their "registrate just to see the data
sheets" policy does not point to enlightened people working there.

Or perhaps Actel would like more sales for their ProASIC parts? End of
their underdog status? (I doubt that write-once Antifuse looks good for
the experiment liking sort of people that open bitstreams would attract).


> Anyone got any good
> ideas?

Publicity campaign among open source hackers? Get then to join an
petition at Xilinx (or Altera or Lattice or Actel)? Slashdot?

Everyone of them would understand the implication of processor
instruction sets being closed (= no Linux). Even just 3D graphic
cards and some USB devices being secret is massively annoying. So
the promise of "make your own chip" (= get rid of the crappy pc
architecture, an future OpenPC) and the point about the parts for
that existing but being closed should be easy to get across.


Or some bluesky ideas:

1. Get own (2nd hand?) chip fabrication line and make an OpenFPGA, with
its bitstream (and chip design?) public? :-) Or (better?) even just be
an fabless house and make the FPGA as open-source portable VHDL or EDIF
and then let anyone download and have a batch of FPGAs made at any
ASIC house.

Could even fix some annoying features of todays commercial devices,
such as making an SRAM FPGA (so least demands on ASIC house), but
with separate battery driven VCCCONF, so it needs no config
device/boottime (just like Flash or Antifuse based FPGAs but without
their process/size/speed problems).

Of course damn patents make it illegal to sell chips implementing some
of the newer features (but the basic 4LUT/FF/Mux logic cell and PIP
based routing should be unencumbered until such a chip is ready for
sales). And just design and "produce for own use" may even make that
moot for some users, so make encumbered extra features compile time
selectable.


2. Or perhaps better ditch FPGAs (a method to get custom chips out of
mass manufacturing an single device), and invent some machine that
looks like an laser printer, but prints ASICs? Same as laser printers
do the same job as offset printing machines, but a lot smaller and
cheaper (but far lower output volume and at lower quality).

Perhaps based on ion implanting? Hmm, I need more semiconductor
physics knowledge.


--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith
- hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware
  code generates the software, have you coded today?

If you have experience with google you know to put quotation marks
around : "XC6216 datasheet", and, voila, you get just one hit from a
spanish website:

http://www.ii.uam.es/~laboweb/LabWeb/pdfs/6kconf.pdf

That's the 72-page data sheet.
Isn't google.com great!
Peter Alfke
==================
Neil Franklin wrote:
> 
> Peter Alfke <peter@xilinx.com> writes:
> >
> > "H.Azmi" wrote:
> > >
> > >          Does any body have datasheet for XC6216 ?
> 
> > My first answer is: look it up on google. You get 747 hits!
> 
> Of course that is just pages which have the 2 pieces of text "6216"
> and "data sheet" (or wven "data" and "sheet" separate) on them. Of
> course that does not have to be an data sheet for an 6216.
> 
> I once got a copy from: http://www.vcc.com/Papers/6200.pdf (at least
> my bookmarks say that, in Jan 2001).
> 
> --
> Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
> Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith
> - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware
>   code generates the software, have you coded today?

"Steve Casselman" <sc_nospam@vcc.com> wrote in message news:<bFZbb.9$AJ4.225483@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>...
> > as much as I know XC6216 is the only Xilinx device that has full public
> > bitstream documentation (or had at least) also for XC6216 there is
> > free JERC6K JBits system inclusive Java sources still downloadable
> > from xilinx download site :)
> >
> > so there are historic and educational reasons to have XC6216, if
> > I would have that board would use it for P&R tool testing, as
> > bitstream is known and array is relativly simple.
> >
> 
> I still have a bag of XC6216s. I really wish Xilinx would publish the
> bitstream for the  V2Pro. I don't get the logic any more the Pro has DES
> encryption so if you want to keep your design secret you can.
> 
> Maybe it is time to start an open the bitstream project? Anyone got any good
> ideas?

Its already started
http://www.openchip.org

the main website is not yet open, but work is in progress :)
could you consider donating that bag of XC6216's to openchip project?
there are things you could get in return.

please contact me as antti@openchip.org

antti

PS there isnt much to show yet
http://www.graphord.com/proj/ChipDesigner/mpga.html

this is MPGA SVG viewer, similar could be made with no big effort
for XC6216 it would instantly spit out bitstream from the web based
editor interface.

sure a fitter tool would be needed for real desing fitting but thats
also work in progress :)