I finally got a test case for my FPGA async one-shot idea, hacked into a build for something else. I got 17 different one-shots, with various pin locations and speed/drive strength settings. https://www.dropbox.com/s/4hxena27mpbpg54/FPGA_OS_1.JPG?raw=1 Most of the outputs look like this, with remarkably consistent timing, edges within a few hundred ps. This is typical: https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6a3a66kxjfm776/DIV_RESET.JPG?raw=1 This one has minimum pin speed and drive strength, and was driving another chip on the board: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8sdm8dz36um7b1p/GD4.JPG?raw=1 So, it looks like it will be safe to do this. I need to reset some ECL counters when an async event happens, and don't want to spin up a 500 MHz clock to do it. The Xilinx tools didn't approve of us doing this. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
the FPGA one-shot
Started by ●March 16, 2018
Reply by ●March 16, 20182018-03-16
In article <7d1oadljinht0pjm5scgih4n5eou1uqv9u@4ax.com>, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:>I finally got a test case for my FPGA async one-shot idea, hacked into >a build for something else. > >I got 17 different one-shots, with various pin locations and >speed/drive strength settings. > >https://www.dropbox.com/s/4hxena27mpbpg54/FPGA_OS_1.JPG?raw=1 > > >Most of the outputs look like this, with remarkably consistent timing, >edges within a few hundred ps. This is typical: > >https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6a3a66kxjfm776/DIV_RESET.JPG?raw=1 > >This one has minimum pin speed and drive strength, and was driving >another chip on the board: > >https://www.dropbox.com/s/8sdm8dz36um7b1p/GD4.JPG?raw=1 > >So, it looks like it will be safe to do this. I need to reset some ECL >counters when an async event happens, and don't want to spin up a 500 >MHz clock to do it. > >The Xilinx tools didn't approve of us doing this.John - did you force any special LOCs or other physical contraints within the implementation? Since the FF has an async clr, I don't think it can go in the IOB (the input trigger pin nor the output one shot). So, the FF is within the fabric. Any special constraints on the CLR signal route? Regards, Mark
Reply by ●March 16, 20182018-03-16
On 2018-03-16 11:18, John Larkin wrote:> I finally got a test case for my FPGA async one-shot idea, hacked into > a build for something else. > > I got 17 different one-shots, with various pin locations and > speed/drive strength settings. > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/4hxena27mpbpg54/FPGA_OS_1.JPG?raw=1 > > > Most of the outputs look like this, with remarkably consistent timing, > edges within a few hundred ps. This is typical: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6a3a66kxjfm776/DIV_RESET.JPG?raw=1 > > This one has minimum pin speed and drive strength, and was driving > another chip on the board: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/8sdm8dz36um7b1p/GD4.JPG?raw=1 > > So, it looks like it will be safe to do this. I need to reset some ECL > counters when an async event happens, and don't want to spin up a 500 > MHz clock to do it. > > The Xilinx tools didn't approve of us doing this. >Ok, the last one that is driving across the board I wouldn't consider reliable. The other looks good, why don't they allow this? Don't they allow ring oscillators? Unorthodox tricks are the most fun in electronics design. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●March 16, 20182018-03-16
John Larkin wrote:> > The Xilinx tools didn't approve of us doing this. > >That's no surprise. My guess is that any tweak of the process could throw this off, too, but maybe not enough to cause you grief. Jon
Reply by ●March 16, 20182018-03-16
On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 18:30:50 -0000 (UTC), gtwrek@sonic.net (gtwrek) wrote:>In article <7d1oadljinht0pjm5scgih4n5eou1uqv9u@4ax.com>, >John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote: >>I finally got a test case for my FPGA async one-shot idea, hacked into >>a build for something else. >> >>I got 17 different one-shots, with various pin locations and >>speed/drive strength settings. >> >>https://www.dropbox.com/s/4hxena27mpbpg54/FPGA_OS_1.JPG?raw=1 >> >> >>Most of the outputs look like this, with remarkably consistent timing, >>edges within a few hundred ps. This is typical: >> >>https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6a3a66kxjfm776/DIV_RESET.JPG?raw=1 >> >>This one has minimum pin speed and drive strength, and was driving >>another chip on the board: >> >>https://www.dropbox.com/s/8sdm8dz36um7b1p/GD4.JPG?raw=1 >> >>So, it looks like it will be safe to do this. I need to reset some ECL >>counters when an async event happens, and don't want to spin up a 500 >>MHz clock to do it. >> >>The Xilinx tools didn't approve of us doing this. > >John - did you force any special LOCs or other physical contraints >within the implementation? Since the FF has an async clr, I don't think >it can go in the IOB (the input trigger pin nor the output one shot). >So, the FF is within the fabric. Any special constraints on the CLR >signal route? > >Regards, > >Mark >I didn't code this, but I'll ask. The flop is in the i/o block, but the clear path had to run through a nearby switchbox. The trigger is from a regular global clock net. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply by ●March 16, 20182018-03-16
On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 11:43:54 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:>On 2018-03-16 11:18, John Larkin wrote: >> I finally got a test case for my FPGA async one-shot idea, hacked into >> a build for something else. >> >> I got 17 different one-shots, with various pin locations and >> speed/drive strength settings. >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/4hxena27mpbpg54/FPGA_OS_1.JPG?raw=1 >> >> >> Most of the outputs look like this, with remarkably consistent timing, >> edges within a few hundred ps. This is typical: >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6a3a66kxjfm776/DIV_RESET.JPG?raw=1 >> >> This one has minimum pin speed and drive strength, and was driving >> another chip on the board: >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/8sdm8dz36um7b1p/GD4.JPG?raw=1 >> >> So, it looks like it will be safe to do this. I need to reset some ECL >> counters when an async event happens, and don't want to spin up a 500 >> MHz clock to do it. >> >> The Xilinx tools didn't approve of us doing this. >> > >Ok, the last one that is driving across the board I wouldn't consider >reliable. The other looks good, why don't they allow this? Don't they >allow ring oscillators?The last one was slowest i/o cell speed and 4 mA drive strength. It's grunting to drive the trace capacitance and a chip pin. 10 layer boards can have a lot of trace capacitance.> >Unorthodox tricks are the most fun in electronics design.The tools pitch hissy-fits when you do async stuff, like ring oscillators. We are offending The Church Of Synchronous Design. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply by ●March 16, 20182018-03-16
On 2018-03-16 12:17, John Larkin wrote:> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 11:43:54 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> On 2018-03-16 11:18, John Larkin wrote: >>> I finally got a test case for my FPGA async one-shot idea, hacked into >>> a build for something else. >>> >>> I got 17 different one-shots, with various pin locations and >>> speed/drive strength settings. >>> >>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/4hxena27mpbpg54/FPGA_OS_1.JPG?raw=1 >>> >>> >>> Most of the outputs look like this, with remarkably consistent timing, >>> edges within a few hundred ps. This is typical: >>> >>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6a3a66kxjfm776/DIV_RESET.JPG?raw=1 >>> >>> This one has minimum pin speed and drive strength, and was driving >>> another chip on the board: >>> >>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/8sdm8dz36um7b1p/GD4.JPG?raw=1 >>> >>> So, it looks like it will be safe to do this. I need to reset some ECL >>> counters when an async event happens, and don't want to spin up a 500 >>> MHz clock to do it. >>> >>> The Xilinx tools didn't approve of us doing this. >>> >> >> Ok, the last one that is driving across the board I wouldn't consider >> reliable. The other looks good, why don't they allow this? Don't they >> allow ring oscillators? > > The last one was slowest i/o cell speed and 4 mA drive strength. It's > grunting to drive the trace capacitance and a chip pin. > > 10 layer boards can have a lot of trace capacitance. > >> >> Unorthodox tricks are the most fun in electronics design. > > The tools pitch hissy-fits when you do async stuff, like ring > oscillators. We are offending The Church Of Synchronous Design. >I have that a lot with RF parts. "Can you guys furnish SPICE data?" ... "No, only S-parameters" ... "I want to used it to pulse something" ... "It's an RF part, you aren't supposed to do that". Like when I use my mountain bike to rush a package to the Fedex depot because I can let some air out of the rear shock and then it glides like a Lincoln, over a very dilapidated stretch of the old Lincoln Highway. I even mounted a cargo platform to it. A Lycra-clad pro biker looked at me in disgust "You do WHAT with it?" -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●March 16, 20182018-03-16
On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 13:00:14 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:>On 2018-03-16 12:17, John Larkin wrote: >> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 11:43:54 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On 2018-03-16 11:18, John Larkin wrote: >>>> I finally got a test case for my FPGA async one-shot idea, hacked into >>>> a build for something else. >>>> >>>> I got 17 different one-shots, with various pin locations and >>>> speed/drive strength settings. >>>> >>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/4hxena27mpbpg54/FPGA_OS_1.JPG?raw=1 >>>> >>>> >>>> Most of the outputs look like this, with remarkably consistent timing, >>>> edges within a few hundred ps. This is typical: >>>> >>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6a3a66kxjfm776/DIV_RESET.JPG?raw=1 >>>> >>>> This one has minimum pin speed and drive strength, and was driving >>>> another chip on the board: >>>> >>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/8sdm8dz36um7b1p/GD4.JPG?raw=1 >>>> >>>> So, it looks like it will be safe to do this. I need to reset some ECL >>>> counters when an async event happens, and don't want to spin up a 500 >>>> MHz clock to do it. >>>> >>>> The Xilinx tools didn't approve of us doing this. >>>> >>> >>> Ok, the last one that is driving across the board I wouldn't consider >>> reliable. The other looks good, why don't they allow this? Don't they >>> allow ring oscillators? >> >> The last one was slowest i/o cell speed and 4 mA drive strength. It's >> grunting to drive the trace capacitance and a chip pin. >> >> 10 layer boards can have a lot of trace capacitance. >> >>> >>> Unorthodox tricks are the most fun in electronics design. >> >> The tools pitch hissy-fits when you do async stuff, like ring >> oscillators. We are offending The Church Of Synchronous Design. >> > >I have that a lot with RF parts. "Can you guys furnish SPICE data?" ... >"No, only S-parameters" ... "I want to used it to pulse something" ... >"It's an RF part, you aren't supposed to do that".Exactly. I asked Mini-Circuits "Does that MMIC invert the signal?" and they didn't know. The RF boys just slosh stuff around by the bucket full. PHEMT DC transfer function? Rds-on? Leakage? C-V curve? Ha! I know more about a lot of "RF" parts than the makers do.> >Like when I use my mountain bike to rush a package to the Fedex depot >because I can let some air out of the rear shock and then it glides like >a Lincoln, over a very dilapidated stretch of the old Lincoln Highway. I >even mounted a cargo platform to it. A Lycra-clad pro biker looked at me >in disgust "You do WHAT with it?"The Lincoln Highway was cool. In Truckee it is now Donner Pass Road. It was the first coast-to-coast auto highway, starting in Times Square in Manhattan and ending in Lincoln Park (now a golf course) in San Francisco. 3389 miles long. I drive it to get to Sugar Bowl. It's spectacular. https://www.dropbox.com/s/5hsohvy2ogacmbf/CW_Donner_Lake.jpg?raw=1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/5x685s2vb5xtxvd/Rainbow_Bridge.jpg?raw=1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Highway -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply by ●March 16, 20182018-03-16
On 2018-03-16 14:01, John Larkin wrote:> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 13:00:14 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: >[...]>> Like when I use my mountain bike to rush a package to the Fedex depot >> because I can let some air out of the rear shock and then it glides like >> a Lincoln, over a very dilapidated stretch of the old Lincoln Highway. I >> even mounted a cargo platform to it. A Lycra-clad pro biker looked at me >> in disgust "You do WHAT with it?" > > > The Lincoln Highway was cool. In Truckee it is now Donner Pass Road. > It was the first coast-to-coast auto highway, starting in Times Square > in Manhattan and ending in Lincoln Park (now a golf course) in San > Francisco. 3389 miles long. > > I drive it to get to Sugar Bowl. It's spectacular. > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/5hsohvy2ogacmbf/CW_Donner_Lake.jpg?raw=1 > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/5x685s2vb5xtxvd/Rainbow_Bridge.jpg?raw=1 > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Highway >In our area it looks more like this and that's the smoother part: http://www.edhhistory.org/images/photo-gallery/lincoln-hwy-cleanup-day-9-22-16/thumbs/IMG_2519.jpg On a road bike it can be bone-jarring but the mountian bike rides very smoothly. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●March 16, 20182018-03-16
Am 16.03.2018 um 22:01 schrieb John Larkin:>> >> I have that a lot with RF parts. "Can you guys furnish SPICE data?" ... >> "No, only S-parameters" ... "I want to used it to pulse something" ... >> "It's an RF part, you aren't supposed to do that". > > Exactly. I asked Mini-Circuits "Does that MMIC invert the signal?" and > they didn't know.The s-parameters answer that question better than yes or no. :-)> The RF boys just slosh stuff around by the bucket > full. > > PHEMT DC transfer function? Rds-on? Leakage? C-V curve? Ha! > > I know more about a lot of "RF" parts than the makers do. >
