I had a meeting with my local salesperson, rep and FAE and they got me to take another look at the SpartanXL for the 5 volt tolerant socket on my board. The part looks pretty good in most respects, but there are two flies in the ointment. One is the lack of support in the current tools. I know Xilinx still provides the "classic" tool set which should work ok, but I am not comfortable using a different tool and would have to buy a third party synthesis tool to support this. The other problem is that I would have to use the XCS40XL-5CS280 to get the density in a small package. But they don't offer an industrial temp version in this package. Is there a thermal reason that this package won't support the industrial temp range, or is this just a matter of space on the shelf for yet another chip version? Any way to get around this issue? Is there a spread sheet for calculating the power consumption? I have a design that I can extract data from to drive a power consumption model if I can get a model. -- Rick "rickman" Collins rick.collins@XYarius.com Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY removed. Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com 4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
SpartanXL
Started by ●October 14, 2003
Reply by ●October 14, 20032003-10-14
Rick, SpartanXL is an XC4000XL-derivative, while Spartan-II is Virtex-derived. That means it is a big generation-step younger, more modern, better supported. All the devices mentioned have 3.3V I/O that are 5-V tolerant. Take a look at the younger parts, they may give you more flexibility. I hate to contradict your FAE :-( Peter Alfke ============= rickman wrote:> > I had a meeting with my local salesperson, rep and FAE and they got me > to take another look at the SpartanXL for the 5 volt tolerant socket on > my board. The part looks pretty good in most respects, but there are > two flies in the ointment. One is the lack of support in the current > tools. I know Xilinx still provides the "classic" tool set which should > work ok, but I am not comfortable using a different tool and would have > to buy a third party synthesis tool to support this. > > The other problem is that I would have to use the XCS40XL-5CS280 to get > the density in a small package. But they don't offer an industrial temp > version in this package. Is there a thermal reason that this package > won't support the industrial temp range, or is this just a matter of > space on the shelf for yet another chip version? Any way to get around > this issue? Is there a spread sheet for calculating the power > consumption? I have a design that I can extract data from to drive a > power consumption model if I can get a model. > > -- > > Rick "rickman" Collins > > rick.collins@XYarius.com > Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY > removed. > > Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company > Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com > 4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice > Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
Reply by ●October 14, 20032003-10-14
Peter, thanks, but we have had this conversation several times. None of the Virtex or Spartan II devices can be used in this socket because of the high start up currents. Right now the socket is slated to be filled by an Altera EP1K30 since it meets all the requirements. I was looking at the SpartanXL only because there would be some advantage to having all the PLDs on the board be from one vendor using one tool. But I don't see much advantage to using the SpXL if I have to use the "classic" tools and go with a large package. Peter Alfke wrote:> > Rick, > SpartanXL is an XC4000XL-derivative, while Spartan-II is Virtex-derived. > That means it is a big generation-step younger, more modern, better supported. > All the devices mentioned have 3.3V I/O that are 5-V tolerant. Take a > look at the younger parts, they may give you more flexibility. I hate to > contradict your FAE :-( > > Peter Alfke > ============= > rickman wrote: > > > > I had a meeting with my local salesperson, rep and FAE and they got me > > to take another look at the SpartanXL for the 5 volt tolerant socket on > > my board. The part looks pretty good in most respects, but there are > > two flies in the ointment. One is the lack of support in the current > > tools. I know Xilinx still provides the "classic" tool set which should > > work ok, but I am not comfortable using a different tool and would have > > to buy a third party synthesis tool to support this. > > > > The other problem is that I would have to use the XCS40XL-5CS280 to get > > the density in a small package. But they don't offer an industrial temp > > version in this package. Is there a thermal reason that this package > > won't support the industrial temp range, or is this just a matter of > > space on the shelf for yet another chip version? Any way to get around > > this issue? Is there a spread sheet for calculating the power > > consumption? I have a design that I can extract data from to drive a > > power consumption model if I can get a model. > > > > -- > > > > Rick "rickman" Collins > > > > rick.collins@XYarius.com > > Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY > > removed. > > > > Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company > > Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com > > 4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice > > Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX-- Rick "rickman" Collins rick.collins@XYarius.com Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY removed. Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com 4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
Reply by ●October 14, 20032003-10-14
rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote: : Peter, thanks, but we have had this conversation several times. None of : the Virtex or Spartan II devices can be used in this socket because of : the high start up currents. For Spartan II the specifications for the startup current for recent silicon has been revised some days ago. Do they still not meet your requirements. Bye -- Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt --------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------
Reply by ●October 14, 20032003-10-14
rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote: : Peter, thanks, but we have had this conversation several times. None of : the Virtex or Spartan II devices can be used in this socket because of : the high start up currents. For Spartan II the specifications for the startup current for recent silicon has been revised some days ago. Do they still not meet your requirements? Bye -- Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt --------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------
Reply by ●October 14, 20032003-10-14
Uwe Bonnes wrote:> > rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote: > : Peter, thanks, but we have had this conversation several times. None of > : the Virtex or Spartan II devices can be used in this socket because of > : the high start up currents. > > For Spartan II the specifications for the startup current for recent silicon > has been revised some days ago. Do they still not meet your requirements.Interesting. I see the Spartan IIE also had a tweak downwards, and gained on dV/dT caveats. MAX static currents are still not nice. -jg
Reply by ●October 15, 20032003-10-15
Uwe Bonnes wrote:> > rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote: > : Peter, thanks, but we have had this conversation several times. None of > : the Virtex or Spartan II devices can be used in this socket because of > : the high start up currents. > > For Spartan II the specifications for the startup current for recent silicon > has been revised some days ago. Do they still not meet your requirements.No, the requirement only dropped from 2.0 Amps to 1.5 Amps at the industrial temp range. This would require the power converter to be larger than the chip! This section of the board is our "low power" section and the power converter will supply a *total* of 250 mA at 2.5 volts. -- Rick "rickman" Collins rick.collins@XYarius.com Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY removed. Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com 4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
Reply by ●October 15, 20032003-10-15
rickman wrote:> No, the requirement only dropped from 2.0 Amps to 1.5 Amps at the > industrial temp range. This would require the power converter to be > larger than the chip! This section of the board is our "low power" > section and the power converter will supply a *total* of 250 mA at 2.5 > volts.Did you see Austin Lesea's cunning trick of cycling the chip until it warms up and starts on lower power?
Reply by ●October 15, 20032003-10-15
Jim, Various changes went into the new mask for the 300mm fab, so we were able to reduce (by design) the start up peak by more than 60%. This also allows for relaxing the dV/dt. SInce we figured out what causes this in Virtex II, we have had no POS (power on surge) issues in subsequent families. Unfortunately it required a complete redesign which is not possible for the older parts. Austin Jim Granville wrote:> Uwe Bonnes wrote: > > > > rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote: > > : Peter, thanks, but we have had this conversation several times. None of > > : the Virtex or Spartan II devices can be used in this socket because of > > : the high start up currents. > > > > For Spartan II the specifications for the startup current for recent silicon > > has been revised some days ago. Do they still not meet your requirements. > > Interesting. I see the Spartan IIE also had a tweak downwards, > and gained on dV/dT caveats. > MAX static currents are still not nice. > > -jg
Reply by ●October 15, 20032003-10-15
Rick, I understand. Industrial temp minimum current to power on cleanly is the toughest part of the specification, even with the mask changes that were made to improve things. The app note on the "kick start" circuit is the only other alternative we can offer. Storing up the charge required to supply the 1.5A does however require a fairly large capacitor, and it gets even larger and tougher at -40C where almost all caps are -30% to -80% less C (as the electrolyte freezes). Austin
