Xilinx ISE drops support for more parts

I am reposting after a memo from reader siting problems using the
Xilinx link to post to this group.  Sorry about any problems this may
have caused.

After the release of Alliance 3 support was no longer offered
for the XC3xxx family.  Worse, if you did not happen to
have the original software that supported these
devices, Xilinx would not sell you a copy.  Even today we
still have product that uses the 3xxx family.

I am looking at upgrading our group to Allience 5.x
and again see that Xilinx has dropped all support for
Spartan.  Other families were dropped as well. We would
now need three copies of software running to
support the Xilinx devices we use. Of course, not all
the Xilinx tools like to be co-installed, so it's multiple
computers or swap installs.

Xilinx, what is your problem?  Altera may drop parts, but
their router continues to support all of their devices.
Is your software so poorly written that it is so difficult
to maintain parts that you need to drop them?  I could understand
if the parts were no longer available, or you at least sold
older copies of your software.

lecroy wrote:

>I am reposting after a memo from reader siting problems using the
>Xilinx link to post to this group.  Sorry about any problems this may
>have caused.
>
>After the release of Alliance 3 support was no longer offered
>for the XC3xxx family.  Worse, if you did not happen to
>have the original software that supported these
>devices, Xilinx would not sell you a copy.  Even today we
>still have product that uses the 3xxx family.
>
If you're having trouble getting software for 3K devices, let me know.

>I am looking at upgrading our group to Allience 5.x
>and again see that Xilinx has dropped all support for
>Spartan.  Other families were dropped as well. We would
>now need three copies of software running to
>support the Xilinx devices we use. Of course, not all
>the Xilinx tools like to be co-installed, so it's multiple
>computers or swap installs.
>
>Xilinx, what is your problem?  Altera may drop parts, but
>their router continues to support all of their devices.
>Is your software so poorly written that it is so difficult
>to maintain parts that you need to drop them?
>
The issue is not the software, it's the testing.  With thousands of 
device/package/speed
grade combinations, plus the platforms and OSs, plus all the EDA 
interfaces we support,
there are millions of  possibilities that need to be tested.  Since the 
Spartan software was
high quality, and we didn't want to destabalize it with enhancements 
needed for newer
architectures, we decided to freeze the Spartan software.  This allows 
us to focus our
testing efforts where they are needed most.

Spartan software is available for free at:
http://www.xilinx.com/ise_classics/index.html

By the way, I don't expect us to be dropping any more architectures from 
our FPGA
tools.

Steve

>  I could understand
>if the parts were no longer available, or you at least sold
>older copies of your software.
>  
>

On 1 Jul 2003 05:47:25 -0700, lecroy7200@chek.com (lecroy) wrote:
>I am reposting after a memo from reader siting problems using the
>Xilinx link to post to this group.  Sorry about any problems this may
>have caused.

Thanks, I appreciate the lack of HTML in the news group.

>After the release of Alliance 3 support was no longer offered
>for the XC3xxx family.  Worse, if you did not happen to
>have the original software that supported these
>devices, Xilinx would not sell you a copy.  Even today we
>still have product that uses the 3xxx family.

At least for XC4000E, EX, XL, XLA, and Spartan, the SW is
available as Xilinx "Classic" software (free, but need normal
xilinx user id/password).

    http://www.xilinx.com/webpack/classics/spartan_4k/index.htm


>I am looking at upgrading our group to Allience 5.x
>and again see that Xilinx has dropped all support for
>Spartan.  Other families were dropped as well. We would
>now need three copies of software running to
>support the Xilinx devices we use. Of course, not all
>the Xilinx tools like to be co-installed, so it's multiple
>computers or swap installs.

As for maintaining multiple versions of the software
on the same computer, I have found that VMWARE (www.vmware.com)
is a very good solution. I basically set up a virtual computer
for each version of the software, and each is kept separate
and there are no conflicts. Costs a few GBytes of disk, which
these days is only a few $.



Philip Freidin



Philip Freidin
Fliptronics

> The issue is not the software, it's the testing.  With thousands of 
> device/package/speed
> grade combinations, plus the platforms and OSs, plus all the EDA 
> interfaces we support,
> there are millions of  possibilities that need to be tested.  Since the 
> Spartan software was
> high quality, and we didn't want to destabalize it with enhancements 
> needed for newer
> architectures, we decided to freeze the Spartan software.  This allows 
> us to focus our
> testing efforts where they are needed most.

I am a bit surprised that with software this complex that there was no
way to de-couple the various parts.  I am sure Xilinx does a lot of
testing on their software, but I am always amazed when I find a bug
that is known about and it takes them several major releases to fix
it.  My favorite was VHP__0854  The expression can not be converted to
type std_logic_vector. That bug was there forever and finally fixed in
4.x.

We currently hold 7 Xilinx licenses that cost us about $10K a year to
maintain. With Xilinx claiming to be best in class I expect more.

I find it interesting when I had called the Xilinx hotline that they
said there was no way to get the older software.  It's not an issue
for us as we maintain them.  For others this may be a problem.

The bigger problem is that we have some parts that we use that
requires us to keep an old Window 95 PC setup just to support the old
software.  Plus, we don't get to leverage the newer interfaces as they
are developed.  Instead we are forced to remember how to use the old
tools.  This costs us time and money.

Thanks for picking up Synplicity.  We use their full tools.  Fast,
don't drop support, and best of all, their tools work.

> 
> As for maintaining multiple versions of the software
> on the same computer, I have found that VMWARE (www.vmware.com)
> is a very good solution. I basically set up a virtual computer
> for each version of the software, and each is kept separate
> and there are no conflicts. Costs a few GBytes of disk, which
> these days is only a few $.

Good advice, but it addresses they symptom, not the root problem.  I
don't want to have to work around what Xilinx is doing.  I want them
to do a better job for us.

JoeG <no@where.net> wrote in message news:<3F0219B6.8F56CB33@where.net>...
> I've ask Xilinx the ? about legacy support for years -- I have the same
> problem with XC4005 series -- we have hundreds fielded on MILITARY
> applications. However Xilinx newer tool suites Foundation/Alliance DO NOT
> support these legacy devices. So we are STUCK with maintaining an OLD
> machine with OLD Xilinx XACT software.

I feel for you, and every other company who is now in this trap thank
to Xilinx.  I think with Xilinx dropping Spartan, you really have to
wonder what their long term plans are.  Will we have one "stable"
version of software for each series?  Each version with it's own
interface, bugs and PC requirements?  Is this really what we expect
from a company who claims to be the best?

I had called Xilinx marketing to ask some of these questions, and like
the person I spoke to on the Hotline, they just don't have a clue what
the long term plans are.  Who is driving the ship?

lecroy wrote:
> 
> JoeG <no@where.net> wrote in message news:<3F0219B6.8F56CB33@where.net>...
> > I've ask Xilinx the ? about legacy support for years -- I have the same
> > problem with XC4005 series -- we have hundreds fielded on MILITARY
> > applications. However Xilinx newer tool suites Foundation/Alliance DO NOT
> > support these legacy devices. So we are STUCK with maintaining an OLD
> > machine with OLD Xilinx XACT software.
> 
> I feel for you, and every other company who is now in this trap thank
> to Xilinx.  I think with Xilinx dropping Spartan, you really have to
> wonder what their long term plans are.  Will we have one "stable"
> version of software for each series?  Each version with it's own
> interface, bugs and PC requirements?  Is this really what we expect
> from a company who claims to be the best?
> 
> I had called Xilinx marketing to ask some of these questions, and like
> the person I spoke to on the Hotline, they just don't have a clue what
> the long term plans are.  Who is driving the ship?

It is real simple.  The FPGA marketplace is mainly between two players. 
So a maker can focus on a few aspects of the product to compete well in
the marketplace.  I don't expect that long term support in the tools is
a major issue with the majority of users at selection time and even if
it is, who else can you choose?  Is one really that much better than the
other?  My experience with the A vendor had one very bad example of tool
support for an older product.  It was still in the tool, but they
wouldn't consider a bug fix even when there was no viable work around. 
I don't mean to keep harping on this problem, but it was very signficant
to us and I now realize that there were a lot of ramifications other
than just the technical issue.  


-- 

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

Steve Lass wrote:
> 
> lecroy wrote:
> <snip>
> >I had called Xilinx marketing to ask some of these questions, and like
> >the person I spoke to on the Hotline, they just don't have a clue what
> >the long term plans are.  Who is driving the ship?
> >
> I'm driving the ship and like I said, we have no plans to drop any other
> architectures from our
> software.  All the FPGAs we have in the software now are derivatives of
> the Virtex arcitecture
> so keeping them in the release is not difficult.
> 
> Steve Lass
> Director, Software Product Marketing
> Xilinx, Inc.

 Can we get a quick summary of what's removed, and what 
legacy versions of SW are needed to support which family ?

 Peter A mentioned SpartanXL as being still active, 
(and lowest power?) but not supported in the latest SW ?

 I also noted in another thread that Altera ADDED support for
an older 10Kxx family to Quartus 3.0.

 -jg

Steve Lass <lass@xilinx.com> wrote:
[snip]
:I'm driving the ship and like I said, we have no plans to drop any other 
:architectures from our
:software.  All the FPGAs we have in the software now are derivatives of 
:the Virtex arcitecture
:so keeping them in the release is not difficult.

My apologies if I've missed something: I join this thread late.
But now I'm worried: I was about to start a new design using Spartan:
exactly what has been dropped? (It wasn't evident from the Xilinx
website).

lecroy <lecroy7200@chek.com> wrote:
> support the Xilinx devices we use. Of course, not all
> the Xilinx tools like to be co-installed, so it's multiple
> computers or swap installs.

All the tools co-exist from what I've seen. You just need to set your
PATH and XILINX environment variables appropriately for each version.
That probably precludes selecting any version of any tool from the Start
menu, but you can easily write a batch file to choose a version then run
the tool from the command line. (floorplanner, fpga_editor, par, pace,
etc.)

I don't think dropping support for old devices is too unreasonable.
Otherwise the QA effort for each new software version (major, minor,
even service pack) just grows bigger and bigger, and the design of
the software gets more complex and messier etc. We just did something
similar at my work - dropped support for old hardware in a new software
version. The complexity and QA effort was killing us. 

At least Xilinx keep all the support notes for the old tool versions on 
their web site.


Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish@debian.org> <hamish@cloud.net.au>