In article <3f042929$0$23100$5a62ac22@freenews.iinet.net.au>, hamish@cloud.net.au writes: |> I don't think dropping support for old devices is too unreasonable. |> Otherwise the QA effort for each new software version (major, minor, |> even service pack) just grows bigger and bigger, and the design of |> the software gets more complex and messier etc. Why would this be so? If the software is modularized, e.g. the fitter (placer/router) is its very own piece of command-line software there is no need to touch that code again (plus, doing so eases portability). If integration of the necessary calls into the GUI is an issue, well, then just leave it out. From what I read in this and other "tech" groups, developers seem to prefer to write their own batch scripts anyway. (If the shared development machines sit "two networks further", you don't want to wait for GUI updates anyway.) Just my $0.02, Rainer
Xilinx ISE drops support for more parts
Started by ●July 1, 2003
Reply by ●July 3, 20032003-07-03
Reply by ●July 3, 20032003-07-03
Rainer Buchty wrote:>In article <3f042929$0$23100$5a62ac22@freenews.iinet.net.au>, > hamish@cloud.net.au writes: >|> I don't think dropping support for old devices is too unreasonable. >|> Otherwise the QA effort for each new software version (major, minor, >|> even service pack) just grows bigger and bigger, and the design of >|> the software gets more complex and messier etc. > >Why would this be so? If the software is modularized, e.g. the fitter >(placer/router) is its very own piece of command-line software there is >no need to touch that code again (plus, doing so eases portability). >Our software is modular, but each module is not self contained. There are common routines we use for constraint parsing, command line handling, IO interfaces, database management, base level mappers, etc. Making changes to these common utilities can have unexpected effects on older software. This was a bigger issue for us with the pre-Virtex architectures. Like I said, since all FPGAs in the software are based on the Virtex architecture, there is no reason for us to drop any more families. Right now, our software is over 20 million lines of code. If each architecture's software was self contained, my guess is, that would double. I would think that most of you would rather we put our testing effort into the more recent architectures. Again, the 4K and Spartan/XL software is available, fully supported, and free. Steve> >If integration of the necessary calls into the GUI is an issue, well, then >just leave it out. From what I read in this and other "tech" groups, >developers seem to prefer to write their own batch scripts anyway. (If >the shared development machines sit "two networks further", you don't >want to wait for GUI updates anyway.) > >Just my $0.02, > Rainer > > > > >
Reply by ●July 3, 20032003-07-03
> I'm driving the ship and like I said, we have no plans to drop any other > architectures from our > software. All the FPGAs we have in the software now are derivatives of > the Virtex arcitecture > so keeping them in the release is not difficult. > > Steve Lass > Director, Software Product Marketing > Xilinx, Inc.Steve, you have a tough job making these calls, and I am sure you are guiding Xilinx in a maner that is best suited for them. I believe you when you made the statement "..we have no plans to drop ...". I am sure there were no plans to drop any parts from the tools at a given time. Fool me once, shame on me. (3.x drops 3xxx parts) Fool me twice (5.x drops Spartan +), ..... Our company has been using Xilinx exclusively. This latest move from Xilinx has caused us to re-think our stratagy. All of the tools we use to interface with Xilinx will support both companies and we mostly deal with strick VHDL. Supporting both Altera and Xilinx is not a problem. Xilinx is sending someone next week to talk with us. Should be interesting.
Reply by ●July 3, 20032003-07-03
Here are some tutorial notes, to calm the waves: The physical life-length of typical FPGAs is >>10 years continuously at the max allowed stress. In practical terms this means they work and are reliable for 50 years or even longer, effectively forever. "Old FPGAs never die, they just get obsolete". The commercial availability of popular parts is well beyond 10 years after introduction. Unpopular sleepers may be discontinued earlier. Any responsible manufacturer gives you 1 to 2 years of warning and "last buy" opportunities, and sometimes transfers the die inventory to an "afterlife" supplier. Software support in the most current releases can be a problem, and has been discussed here. For Xilinx, the architectural commonality of all Virtex and Sparten-II ( and later) devices makes it easier to maintain support for all these families. Old software is available for free, but may require an old computer OS. Design-in life is much shorter, since newer devices make the older devices appear slow and expensive. "One year in the life of an FPGA equals 15 years of human life" means that a device introduced 2 years ago is in its prime, a device introduced 4 years ago is now a senior citizen, fully capable but not to be raced against the newer parts. (There are special cases: Spartan-XL, with its roots in XC4000, is today the last really low idle-power FPGA family, and is 5-V tolerant and -compatible.) Freshly announced parts are exciting, but the user must ascertain their availability. The manufacturer should not be criticized for releasing product details ahead of availability. That gives the user a chance to plan and evaluate. And finally, we all know and understand that the frentic pace of FPGA innovation is at odds with the long design cycle time of miltary and aerospace projects. Just some common thoughts... Peter Alfke ==========================
Reply by ●July 3, 20032003-07-03
Jim Granville wrote:> Can we get a quick summary of what's removed, and what >legacy versions of SW are needed to support which family ? > >The current software (version 5.1i, 5.2i, 6.1i) supports Virtex, Virtex-E, Virtex-II, Virtex-II Pro, Spartan II, Spartan IIE, and Spartan-3. ISE Classics (version 4.2i) supports XC4000E, XC4000L, XC4000EX, XC4000XL, XC4000XLA, Spartan, and SpartanXL. Contact the hotline if you need software for: 3.1i supporting XC3000A, XC3000L and XC5200. XACT 6 supporting XC2000, XC3000, and XC4000, XC4000A and XC5200. Steve
Reply by ●July 3, 20032003-07-03
Marius Vollmer <mvo@zagadka.de> wrote: : Peter Alfke <peter@xilinx.com> writes: :> Old software is available for free, but may require an old computer :> OS. : What about releasing the source of unsupported tools into the public : domain, or as Free Software? Unmaintained binary only software is not : a big help, but old source code that one can maintain oneself is a : winner. : You might also learn a thing or two about the 'Free Software / Open : Source community' that way and how it might help you make Xilinx more : popular. To cite the Bible: "Eher geht ein Kamel durch's Nadeloehr, als dass ..." Probably the software is hopelessly interweaved with externelly licensed software and other parts that are still considered crucial. I doubt that there is a big difference between an FPGA suite and Netscape. And look what effort it took to get from Netscape to Mozilla. The audience for a FPGA suite is oders of magnitude smaller. Anyways, such a move would be great... Bye B.t.w.: For mantaining legacy version of windows software, the windows emulator wine (www.winehq.com) might be an option for the not-so-faint-hearted. -- Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt --------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------
Reply by ●July 3, 20032003-07-03
Marius Vollmer <mvo@zagadka.de> wrote: : Peter Alfke <peter@xilinx.com> writes: :> Old software is available for free, but may require an old computer :> OS. : What about releasing the source of unsupported tools into the public : domain, or as Free Software? Unmaintained binary only software is not : a big help, but old source code that one can maintain oneself is a : winner. : You might also learn a thing or two about the 'Free Software / Open : Source community' that way and how it might help you make Xilinx more : popular. To cite the Bible: "Eher geht ein Kamel durch's Nadeloehr, als dass ..." Probably the software is hopelessly interweaved with externally licensed software and other parts that are still considered crucial. I doubt that there is a big difference between an FPGA suite and Netscape. And look what effort it took to get from Netscape to Mozilla. The audience for a FPGA suite is orders of magnitude smaller. Anyways, such a move would be great... Bye B.t.w.: For maintaining legacy version of windows software, the windows emulator wine (www.winehq.com) might be an option for the not-so-faint-hearted. -- Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt --------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------
Reply by ●July 3, 20032003-07-03
Too many German quotes. Uwe's was "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God" New Testament, St. Matthew 19:24 Maybe you remember from Sunday School... Peter A ====================== Uwe Bonnes wrote:> To cite the Bible: > > "Eher geht ein Kamel durch's Nadeloehr, als dass ..." > >
Reply by ●July 4, 20032003-07-04
Steve Lass <lass@xilinx.com> writes:> Jim Granville wrote: > >> Can we get a quick summary of what's removed, and what legacy >> versions of SW are needed to support which family ? >> > The current software (version 5.1i, 5.2i, 6.1i) supports Virtex, > Virtex-E, Virtex-II, Virtex-II Pro, Spartan II, Spartan IIE, and > Spartan-3. > ISE Classics (version 4.2i) supports XC4000E, XC4000L, XC4000EX, > XC4000XL, XC4000XLA, Spartan, and SpartanXL. > > Contact the hotline if you need software for: > 3.1i supporting XC3000A, XC3000L and XC5200. > XACT 6 supporting XC2000, XC3000, and XC4000, XC4000A and XC5200.This sounds like I better terminate my Xilinx software subscription, and use the free versions instead. I recently changed my PC to a new one, and tried to install the licensed version of ISE 4.2, because I need Spartan and Spartan XL. It was a pain to make it work again because one design uses FPGA express, and it always complained about the license being invalid. The only solution was, as a Xilinx FAE told me, to use use tool to change the volume serial number of my hard disk to the one that the old PC had. Fortunately I didn' have to reregister Windows XP again. Thomas
Reply by ●July 5, 20032003-07-05
Thomas Heller wrote:> > Steve Lass <lass@xilinx.com> writes: > > > Jim Granville wrote: > > > >> Can we get a quick summary of what's removed, and what legacy > >> versions of SW are needed to support which family ? > >> > > The current software (version 5.1i, 5.2i, 6.1i) supports Virtex, > > Virtex-E, Virtex-II, Virtex-II Pro, Spartan II, Spartan IIE, and > > Spartan-3. > > ISE Classics (version 4.2i) supports XC4000E, XC4000L, XC4000EX, > > XC4000XL, XC4000XLA, Spartan, and SpartanXL. > > > > Contact the hotline if you need software for: > > 3.1i supporting XC3000A, XC3000L and XC5200. > > XACT 6 supporting XC2000, XC3000, and XC4000, XC4000A and XC5200. > > This sounds like I better terminate my Xilinx software subscription, and > use the free versions instead. > > I recently changed my PC to a new one, and tried to install the licensed > version of ISE 4.2, because I need Spartan and Spartan XL. It was a > pain to make it work again because one design uses FPGA express, and it > always complained about the license being invalid. > > The only solution was, as a Xilinx FAE told me, to use use tool to > change the volume serial number of my hard disk to the one that the old > PC had. Fortunately I didn' have to reregister Windows XP again.Which tool did you find that would let you change the disk serial number? -- Rick "rickman" Collins rick.collins@XYarius.com Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY removed. Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com 4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
