Altium Designer LiveDesign Evaluation Kits (once again)

Hi all,

I know this has been discussed on the NG before, but it seems like
every time it is discussed someone hijacks the post and we end up with
no answers. But this will be the last one. I promise ;)


I need two identical boards with Xilinx and Altera parts on them for
some "fun" at home. I found this page on the net

http://www.altium.com/forms/evaluation.aspx

Which is this board, I assume:

http://www.altium.com/files/livedesign/Live_design_features.pdf


$250 for 2 boards plus the download cable sounds nice, but i wonder if
there is a catch?

* do the boards work with chip vendor software (ISE & Quartus) flows?
what about NIOS II and EDK?
* does the programming cable work with vendor supplied programmers?
* what is that 30-day license thingy they mention on their site? is the
board bricked after 30 days??
* someone mentioned these lack program flash, is that true? do i have
to re-program boards every time i turn them on?
* same cable for both boards? can i remove the cable while the board is
on, so i can program the other board?
* and so on...


to summarize, can I buy these boards instead of ordering a "Starter
kit" board from Xilinx and a "NIOS II" board from Altera? what would i
be missing?




regards,
-Burns

burn.sir@gmail.com wrote:

> $250 for 2 boards plus the download cable sounds nice, but i wonder if
> there is a catch?

I belive that the basic purpose of these boards is to offer a platform 
for Altium Designer (software) evaluation. So, if you are an interested 
company, you buy a couple of these cheapos and recive a 30-day Designer 
Licence for your engineers to play with it. Then they are supposed to be 
thrilled and then you buy them NanoBoards and pay for Designer licences 
(not cheapos). But on the other hand, the NanoBoard isn't that much 
better, so you should be able to similar designs with the eval board...

> * do the boards work with chip vendor software (ISE & Quartus) flows?
> what about NIOS II and EDK?
> * does the programming cable work with vendor supplied programmers?

Not sure 'bout that... I belive all the programming is done via JTAG, if 
that means anything to you... Maybe you could resolder the cable to work 
with different programmers if it doesn't by default?

> * what is that 30-day license thingy they mention on their site? is the
> board bricked after 30 days??

That would be the Altium Designer licence.

> * someone mentioned these lack program flash, is that true? do i have
> to re-program boards every time i turn them on?

AFAIK, the supplied FPGA's are RAM-based, so you would have to "reburn" 
your whole design anyway... The purpose of these boards is to do live 
design, I belive. Not sure 'bout flash, though.

This is all I know, hope this helps a bit.

Regards,

- R.

Hi,

> * do the boards work with chip vendor software (ISE & Quartus) flows?

I own the Cyclone one and I'm very happy with it; can't tell about the
Xilinx version.

The Cyclone board has a 2x13 pin header to connect to a PC's parallel
port. It then behaves as if you used a ByteBlaster-compatible cable in
JTAG mode . It works with Alteras Quartus and NIOS IDE out of the box.
NIOS IDE complains that you should use an USB Blaster Rev.B for better
compatibility, but I haven't had any problems with the parallel cable.
With some rewiring you can attach an USB Blaster as well (see below).

> board bricked after 30 days??

No. 

>  re-program boards every time i turn them on?

Yes, there is no configuration device. The pads of the FPGA that would be
used to connect it to an EPCS device are tied to ground (and out of reach
under the BGA).

> * same cable for both boards? can i remove the cable while the board is
> on, so i can program the other board?

You can remove/switch the cable without interrupting operation on the
board.

> to summarize, can I buy these boards instead of ordering a "Starter
> kit" board from Xilinx and a "NIOS II" board from Altera? what would i
> be missing?

The kits from Altera usually have some more connectors, interfaces with
drivers (USB, Ethernet), RAM (SDRAM, not only SRAM) and Flash memory.
1MB of SRAM is okay if you want to run small programs or RTOS like uC/OS2
or RTEMS, but it isn't sufficient for larger OS like uClinux. 

I have a picture with a Cyclone board with an air-wired Ethernet PHY, USB
device interface (ISP1106-based, logic from OpenCores.org) and
USB-Blaster-compatible interface pictured here:

  http://www.ixo.de/info/usb_jtag/eb2_usbjtag_eth.jpg 

It runs RTEMS on NIOS2. But it has to be reconfigured from host after each
power up and therefore is really only suitable for development, not as a
standalone device. 

Regards,
Kolja

-- 
mr. kolja waschk - haubach-39 - 22765 hh - germany
fon +49 40 889130-34 - fax -35 - http://www.ixo.de

burn.sir@gmail.com wrote:

> I need two identical boards with Xilinx and Altera parts on them for
> some "fun" at home. I found this page on the net

If you buy the Nanoboard, you can get plug-in FPGA modules for both 
Altera and Xilinx devices. You also have on-board configuration flash, 
if you require that.

Using Altium's software, you can seamlessly target the same design to 
both Altera and Xilinx devices, something which I've actually done.

What sort of designs will you be "playing" with?

Regards,

-- 
Mark McDougall, Engineer
Virtual Logic Pty Ltd, <http://www.vl.com.au>
21-25 King St, Rockdale, 2216
Ph: +612-9599-3255 Fax: +612-9599-3266

burn.sir@gmail.com wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I know this has been discussed on the NG before, but it seems like
> every time it is discussed someone hijacks the post and we end up with
> no answers. But this will be the last one. I promise ;)
> 
> 
> I need two identical boards with Xilinx and Altera parts on them for
> some "fun" at home. I found this page on the net
> 
> http://www.altium.com/forms/evaluation.aspx
> 
> Which is this board, I assume:
> 
> http://www.altium.com/files/livedesign/Live_design_features.pdf
> 
> 
> $250 for 2 boards plus the download cable sounds nice, but i wonder if
> there is a catch?
> 
> * do the boards work with chip vendor software (ISE & Quartus) flows?
> what about NIOS II and EDK?
> * does the programming cable work with vendor supplied programmers?
> * what is that 30-day license thingy they mention on their site? is the
> board bricked after 30 days??
> * someone mentioned these lack program flash, is that true? do i have
> to re-program boards every time i turn them on?
> * same cable for both boards? can i remove the cable while the board is
> on, so i can program the other board?
> * and so on...
> 
> 
> to summarize, can I buy these boards instead of ordering a "Starter
> kit" board from Xilinx and a "NIOS II" board from Altera? what would i
> be missing?

The altium boards are intended to work wit their tools.
Their tools means the Altium designer, which uses the
Altera and Xilinx web edition as driver. The altium designer
produces a netlist or sort of that goes through the
Altera/Xilinx tools.
While the Altium designer has multiple cores, they are
supported with compiler and source line debugger. The
NIOS can be loaded, I assume, as blackbox, not as processor
core. Meaning there won't be a compiler for it, nor a
sourceline debugger.
Having a look at both solutions may be worth the time.
The cost are not necessarily that high when put in comparison
to the overall project cost and the saved time.

Rene
-- 
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net

Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
> burn.sir@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I know this has been discussed on the NG before, but it seems like
> > every time it is discussed someone hijacks the post and we end up with
> > no answers. But this will be the last one. I promise ;)
> >
> >
> > I need two identical boards with Xilinx and Altera parts on them for
> > some "fun" at home. I found this page on the net
> >
> > http://www.altium.com/forms/evaluation.aspx
> >
> > Which is this board, I assume:
> >
> > http://www.altium.com/files/livedesign/Live_design_features.pdf
> >
> >
> > $250 for 2 boards plus the download cable sounds nice, but i wonder if
> > there is a catch?
> >
> > * do the boards work with chip vendor software (ISE & Quartus) flows?
> > what about NIOS II and EDK?
> > * does the programming cable work with vendor supplied programmers?
> > * what is that 30-day license thingy they mention on their site? is the
> > board bricked after 30 days??
> > * someone mentioned these lack program flash, is that true? do i have
> > to re-program boards every time i turn them on?
> > * same cable for both boards? can i remove the cable while the board is
> > on, so i can program the other board?
> > * and so on...
> >
> >
> > to summarize, can I buy these boards instead of ordering a "Starter
> > kit" board from Xilinx and a "NIOS II" board from Altera? what would i
> > be missing?
>
> The altium boards are intended to work wit their tools.
> Their tools means the Altium designer, which uses the
> Altera and Xilinx web edition as driver. The altium designer
> produces a netlist or sort of that goes through the
> Altera/Xilinx tools.
> While the Altium designer has multiple cores, they are
> supported with compiler and source line debugger. The
> NIOS can be loaded, I assume, as blackbox, not as processor
> core. Meaning there won't be a compiler for it, nor a
> sourceline debugger.
> Having a look at both solutions may be worth the time.
> The cost are not necessarily that high when put in comparison
> to the overall project cost and the saved time.
>
> Rene
> --
> Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
> & commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net

Actually, no - the boards are quite generic. They just don't have local
configuration memories on them. They should be quite usable as
development boards even if you decide not to license the Altium
software. Even Altium mentions that the boards are usable with the
ordinary tools on their website (which is why the boards are $99 and
you get to keep them)

Although I have since decided to go with another board, it should be
possible to attach a PLD to the "printer port" header, and load the
board with an SVF player (or equivalent for Altera) via JTAG.

radarman schrieb:

> Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
> > burn.sir@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I know this has been discussed on the NG before, but it seems like
> > > every time it is discussed someone hijacks the post and we end up with
> > > no answers. But this will be the last one. I promise ;)
> > >
> > >
> > > I need two identical boards with Xilinx and Altera parts on them for
> > > some "fun" at home. I found this page on the net
> > >
> > > http://www.altium.com/forms/evaluation.aspx
> > >
> > > Which is this board, I assume:
> > >
> > > http://www.altium.com/files/livedesign/Live_design_features.pdf
> > >
> > >
> > > $250 for 2 boards plus the download cable sounds nice, but i wonder if
> > > there is a catch?
> > >
> > > * do the boards work with chip vendor software (ISE & Quartus) flows?
> > > what about NIOS II and EDK?
> > > * does the programming cable work with vendor supplied programmers?
> > > * what is that 30-day license thingy they mention on their site? is the
> > > board bricked after 30 days??
> > > * someone mentioned these lack program flash, is that true? do i have
> > > to re-program boards every time i turn them on?
> > > * same cable for both boards? can i remove the cable while the board is
> > > on, so i can program the other board?
> > > * and so on...
> > >
> > >
> > > to summarize, can I buy these boards instead of ordering a "Starter
> > > kit" board from Xilinx and a "NIOS II" board from Altera? what would i
> > > be missing?
> >
> > The altium boards are intended to work wit their tools.
> > Their tools means the Altium designer, which uses the
> > Altera and Xilinx web edition as driver. The altium designer
> > produces a netlist or sort of that goes through the
> > Altera/Xilinx tools.
> > While the Altium designer has multiple cores, they are
> > supported with compiler and source line debugger. The
> > NIOS can be loaded, I assume, as blackbox, not as processor
> > core. Meaning there won't be a compiler for it, nor a
> > sourceline debugger.
> > Having a look at both solutions may be worth the time.
> > The cost are not necessarily that high when put in comparison
> > to the overall project cost and the saved time.
> >
> > Rene
> > --
> > Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
> > & commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net
>
> Actually, no - the boards are quite generic. They just don't have local
> configuration memories on them. They should be quite usable as
> development boards even if you decide not to license the Altium
> software. Even Altium mentions that the boards are usable with the
> ordinary tools on their website (which is why the boards are $99 and
> you get to keep them)
>
> Although I have since decided to go with another board, it should be
> possible to attach a PLD to the "printer port" header, and load the
> board with an SVF player (or equivalent for Altera) via JTAG.

its easier to convert SVF to ACE format using Xilinx tools (SVF2ACE)
and make the PLD to play pack ACE file :)

way simpler an ACE Player requires only
32 bit count register
3 - 8 bit registers (can be one if verify is not supported)
one command register (can be 3 bits only)
simple state machine

additional some logic to hold the address logic for external memory

no problem for a smallest micro or 128 macrocell PLD

ASFAIK all other JTAG bytecode players require more resources

Antti

Antti wrote:
> radarman schrieb:
>
> > Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
> > > burn.sir@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > I know this has been discussed on the NG before, but it seems like
> > > > every time it is discussed someone hijacks the post and we end up with
> > > > no answers. But this will be the last one. I promise ;)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I need two identical boards with Xilinx and Altera parts on them for
> > > > some "fun" at home. I found this page on the net
> > > >
> > > > http://www.altium.com/forms/evaluation.aspx
> > > >
> > > > Which is this board, I assume:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.altium.com/files/livedesign/Live_design_features.pdf
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > $250 for 2 boards plus the download cable sounds nice, but i wonder if
> > > > there is a catch?
> > > >
> > > > * do the boards work with chip vendor software (ISE & Quartus) flows?
> > > > what about NIOS II and EDK?
> > > > * does the programming cable work with vendor supplied programmers?
> > > > * what is that 30-day license thingy they mention on their site? is the
> > > > board bricked after 30 days??
> > > > * someone mentioned these lack program flash, is that true? do i have
> > > > to re-program boards every time i turn them on?
> > > > * same cable for both boards? can i remove the cable while the board is
> > > > on, so i can program the other board?
> > > > * and so on...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > to summarize, can I buy these boards instead of ordering a "Starter
> > > > kit" board from Xilinx and a "NIOS II" board from Altera? what would i
> > > > be missing?
> > >
> > > The altium boards are intended to work wit their tools.
> > > Their tools means the Altium designer, which uses the
> > > Altera and Xilinx web edition as driver. The altium designer
> > > produces a netlist or sort of that goes through the
> > > Altera/Xilinx tools.
> > > While the Altium designer has multiple cores, they are
> > > supported with compiler and source line debugger. The
> > > NIOS can be loaded, I assume, as blackbox, not as processor
> > > core. Meaning there won't be a compiler for it, nor a
> > > sourceline debugger.
> > > Having a look at both solutions may be worth the time.
> > > The cost are not necessarily that high when put in comparison
> > > to the overall project cost and the saved time.
> > >
> > > Rene
> > > --
> > > Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
> > > & commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net
> >
> > Actually, no - the boards are quite generic. They just don't have local
> > configuration memories on them. They should be quite usable as
> > development boards even if you decide not to license the Altium
> > software. Even Altium mentions that the boards are usable with the
> > ordinary tools on their website (which is why the boards are $99 and
> > you get to keep them)
> >
> > Although I have since decided to go with another board, it should be
> > possible to attach a PLD to the "printer port" header, and load the
> > board with an SVF player (or equivalent for Altera) via JTAG.
>
> its easier to convert SVF to ACE format using Xilinx tools (SVF2ACE)
> and make the PLD to play pack ACE file :)
>
> way simpler an ACE Player requires only
> 32 bit count register
> 3 - 8 bit registers (can be one if verify is not supported)
> one command register (can be 3 bits only)
> simple state machine
>
> additional some logic to hold the address logic for external memory
>
> no problem for a smallest micro or 128 macrocell PLD
>
> ASFAIK all other JTAG bytecode players require more resources
>
> Antti

Antti,
Could you point me to some more info on the ACE format and players? The
only info I seem to be able to dig up is on SystemACE - the Xilinx CF
reader. This sounds like a good use for a smallish CPLD, and something
I can try out on my Digilent XC2XL board.

Thanks!
-Seth

radarman schrieb:

> Antti wrote:
> > radarman schrieb:
> >
> > > Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
> > > > burn.sir@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi all,

> Antti,
> Could you point me to some more info on the ACE format and players? The
> only info I seem to be able to dig up is on SystemACE - the Xilinx CF
> reader. This sounds like a good use for a smallish CPLD, and something
> I can try out on my Digilent XC2XL board.
>
> Thanks!
> -Seth

Hi Seth,

There is no public info on the ACE format. So you have 2 options:

Choice #1: You (or anyone else) can obtain it in some time. The actual
amount you would spend depends on your brain and mileage. For me the
target time was about one hour. You can try obtaining this info for fun
if you like using your brain. Dont feel bad if your target time is more
than one hour.

or

Choice #2: Get my brain. The explanation how I used my brain may come
handy now and later.

http://antti-brain.com

As of players - I have not implemented the player but inside the brain
snapshot are ACE dump and compress utilities with full source codes,
writing an player is trivial as well. Both the dump and compress
utilities did take about one hour each of time to write from scratch.
Note the ACE compress utility is only able to compress ACE files
generated by ISE/Impact version 8.1 or earlier, if Xilinx enhances its
ACE output generation in new releases of the ISE then the utility will
no longer be able to compress the ACE files.

Antti

Antti wrote:
> radarman schrieb:
>
> > Antti wrote:
> > > radarman schrieb:
> > >
> > > > Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
> > > > > burn.sir@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi all,
>
> > Antti,
> > Could you point me to some more info on the ACE format and players? The
> > only info I seem to be able to dig up is on SystemACE - the Xilinx CF
> > reader. This sounds like a good use for a smallish CPLD, and something
> > I can try out on my Digilent XC2XL board.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > -Seth
>
> Hi Seth,
>
> There is no public info on the ACE format. So you have 2 options:
>
> Choice #1: You (or anyone else) can obtain it in some time. The actual
> amount you would spend depends on your brain and mileage. For me the
> target time was about one hour. You can try obtaining this info for fun
> if you like using your brain. Dont feel bad if your target time is more
> than one hour.
>
> or
>
> Choice #2: Get my brain. The explanation how I used my brain may come
> handy now and later.
>
> http://antti-brain.com
>
> As of players - I have not implemented the player but inside the brain
> snapshot are ACE dump and compress utilities with full source codes,
> writing an player is trivial as well. Both the dump and compress
> utilities did take about one hour each of time to write from scratch.
> Note the ACE compress utility is only able to compress ACE files
> generated by ISE/Impact version 8.1 or earlier, if Xilinx enhances its
> ACE output generation in new releases of the ISE then the utility will
> no longer be able to compress the ACE files.
>
> Antti

No need. XAPP139 appears to take all the mystery out of it. It appears
that with careful timing, you could even use a serial platform flash
with your CPLD, allowing for JTAG programmability using standard tools.
You appear to still need a bit counter, though. I'm assuming that you
were planning on pre-programming the size of N into the design - since
each device has a different number of bits in the configuration stream.

http://www.xilinx.com/bvdocs/appnotes/xapp139.pdf

I haven't had time to sit down and write the code yet, but an hour
seems reasonable.

-Seth