Following our recent Swinyard1 (Virtex-4) release we are now looking at the Swinyard2 module concept which will be based on a middle end Virtex-5 (initial XC5VLX50 and others) that will be supported by our Broaddown series of main development boards. Bearing in mind this a small module what features would you like us to put on this module? and what did you all think of the general Swinyard concept? This is you chance to influence what we deliver to the marketplace so do let us know. John Adair Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Broaddown2. The Ultimate Spartan3 Development Board. http://www.enterpoint.co.uk
Development Boards -Your chance to suggest features
Started by ●July 11, 2006
Reply by ●July 11, 20062006-07-11
John Adair wrote:> Following our recent Swinyard1 (Virtex-4) release we are now looking at the > Swinyard2 module concept which will be based on a middle end Virtex-5 > (initial XC5VLX50 and others) that will be supported by our Broaddown series > of main development boards. Bearing in mind this a small module what > features would you like us to put on this module? > > and what did you all think of the general Swinyard concept? > > This is you chance to influence what we deliver to the marketplace so do let > us know. > > John Adair > Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Broaddown2. The Ultimate Spartan3 Development > Board. > http://www.enterpoint.co.uk > >Hello John: I just checked out your Swinyard module. I like the smal formfactor. What are those connectors you use on the module? Do you have a Manufacturer/Part #? I like having the BGA parts on a PCB that I can fit on my PCB that I can hand solder. Are these connectors do-able by hand (I can generally do any QFP or QFN Package, but no BGA)? -Eli
Reply by ●July 11, 20062006-07-11
Eli The connector is a GFZ family from Samtec and are totally solderless. You will see a number of nylon bolts holding the board onto the host board that provides outside world services like supply voltages etc. The GFZ is a sprung contact that when the boards are tightened up together make contact. The simple version of the Moel-Bryn socket that we currently use has 2 GFZ connectors of 40x10 ways each so we get a high number of I/Os available and have a wide range of supporting features. The Moel-Bryn socket pinout will be available under a license/NDA. The license won't necessarily cost anything unless you want to make your own modules. One of our intentions is that these modules could be used to bring high technology to what are relatively low technology host boards as well as the main development board use. John Adair Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Broaddown2. The Ultimate Spartan3 Development Board. http://www.enterpoint.co.uk "Eli Hughes" <emh203@psu.edu> wrote in message news:e90603$s52$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu...> John Adair wrote: >> Following our recent Swinyard1 (Virtex-4) release we are now looking at >> the Swinyard2 module concept which will be based on a middle end Virtex-5 >> (initial XC5VLX50 and others) that will be supported by our Broaddown >> series of main development boards. Bearing in mind this a small module >> what features would you like us to put on this module? >> >> and what did you all think of the general Swinyard concept? >> >> This is you chance to influence what we deliver to the marketplace so do >> let us know. >> >> John Adair >> Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Broaddown2. The Ultimate Spartan3 Development >> Board. >> http://www.enterpoint.co.uk >> >> > > Hello John: > > I just checked out your Swinyard module. I like the smal formfactor. What > are those connectors you use on the module? Do you have a > Manufacturer/Part #? I like having the BGA parts on a PCB that I can fit > on my PCB that I can hand solder. Are these connectors do-able by hand (I > can generally do any QFP or QFN Package, but no BGA)? > > -Eli >
Reply by ●July 11, 20062006-07-11
On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:38:53 +0100, John Adair wrote: [...]> One of our intentions is that these modules could be used to bring >high technology to what are relatively low technology host boardsThis is a truly excellent idea. For some while I've been frustrated by FPGA development boards that have a ragbag of low-tech functionality and connectors, pushing up the price just for me to get something I could easily provide for myself. What you're offering fixes that - for many users, even in small-scale production, the FPGA is the only part of the system that needs fine-line PCBs and non-trivial assembly techniques, and a small FPGA-only plug-in module is the right answer. My only concern would be that you've gone for a fairly high-end FPGA so the entry cost is quite high. Fine for some purposes, but pricing itself out of a potentially useful market for others. Have you any plans for a significantly lower-cost product with a similar overall approach? Thanks -- Jonathan Bromley, Consultant DOULOS - Developing Design Know-how VHDL * Verilog * SystemC * e * Perl * Tcl/Tk * Project Services Doulos Ltd., 22 Market Place, Ringwood, BH24 1AW, UK jonathan.bromley@MYCOMPANY.com http://www.MYCOMPANY.com The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of Doulos Ltd., unless specifically stated.
Reply by ●July 11, 20062006-07-11
The big issue with the GFZ connectors is that they themselves are not low cost and tend to set a base cost for the module that takes it out of the very low cost sector. However we have on our roadmap a FX12 module that is going to use our DIl style connectors at the lower end. We are also considering the same as a Spartan-3 solution. Other variations of the theme we are considering are a module that breaks out a BGA usable PGA on 2.54mm. We have already done that on a non-FPGA part for a very fine pitch BGA and in a reasonably economic way for one of our customers. The Swinyard2 board will cover a cheaper sector than the Swinyard1 that you can see on the website. Also if you are considering a small production run there is room for discounting on Swinyard1. We are pricing on small batch assembly costs due to the price of some of the silicon. We don't plan on hold hugh stocks of these boards as there are 18 possible fits of FPGA on Swinyard1 by the time you consider all sizes and speed grades available. We are planning to hold stock of a small number of variants - the LX40 and SX55 initially more if we see the a steady market. As these FPGA are common with our Broaddown4 product we may also have a quick assemble to order capability but that depends highly on stock we have at any given time. Putting a commercial spin on what we do we can usually come up with a cost effective solution for products in fairly low production numbers. I won't put exact numbers on it as I'm sure someone will disagree about what is considered cost effective but we commonly provide custom solutions for year product volumes of 10-25 units. By the time we hit 100 off batches we aren't China style prices but we can definately give good value in the European and N America context. John Adair Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Raggedstone1. The Low Cost Spartan-3 Development Board. http://www.enterpoint.co.uk "Jonathan Bromley" <jonathan.bromley@MYCOMPANY.com> wrote in message news:npe7b21ppkddj74csrgr02pvjcbcu36b7l@4ax.com...> On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:38:53 +0100, John Adair wrote: > > [...] >> One of our intentions is that these modules could be used to bring >>high technology to what are relatively low technology host boards > > This is a truly excellent idea. For some while I've been frustrated > by FPGA development boards that have a ragbag of low-tech > functionality and connectors, pushing up the price just for me > to get something I could easily provide for myself. What you're > offering fixes that - for many users, even in small-scale production, > the FPGA is the only part of the system that needs fine-line > PCBs and non-trivial assembly techniques, and a small FPGA-only > plug-in module is the right answer. > > My only concern would be that you've gone for a fairly high-end > FPGA so the entry cost is quite high. Fine for some purposes, > but pricing itself out of a potentially useful market for others. > Have you any plans for a significantly lower-cost product with > a similar overall approach? > > Thanks > -- > Jonathan Bromley, Consultant > > DOULOS - Developing Design Know-how > VHDL * Verilog * SystemC * e * Perl * Tcl/Tk * Project Services > > Doulos Ltd., 22 Market Place, Ringwood, BH24 1AW, UK > jonathan.bromley@MYCOMPANY.com > http://www.MYCOMPANY.com > > The contents of this message may contain personal views which > are not the views of Doulos Ltd., unless specifically stated.
Reply by ●July 11, 20062006-07-11
I would **LOVE** A module with a 2.54MM PGA form factor. Something with just the basics (decoupling caps, etc). (I am envsioning something that looks like an old socket 7 intel chip) I work in research where we do alot of our own PCBs and hand-solding, but cannot afford BGA. I only do 2 or 3 boards for a particular project. This limits my ability to use FPGA technology. I would love it if Xilinx still made things in PGA packages...... Alot fo the develop boards are big and clunky. I just want a module. this also makes thngs a bit more modular so I can swap things out later. Cost really isn' tthat big of an issue for me. I need prototyping ability. -Eli Hughes John Adair wrote:> The big issue with the GFZ connectors is that they themselves are not low > cost and tend to set a base cost for the module that takes it out of the > very low cost sector. However we have on our roadmap a FX12 module that is > going to use our DIl style connectors at the lower end. We are also > considering the same as a Spartan-3 solution. Other variations of the theme > we are considering are a module that breaks out a BGA usable PGA on 2.54mm. > We have already done that on a non-FPGA part for a very fine pitch BGA and > in a reasonably economic way for one of our customers. > > The Swinyard2 board will cover a cheaper sector than the Swinyard1 that you > can see on the website. Also if you are considering a small production run > there is room for discounting on Swinyard1. We are pricing on small batch > assembly costs due to the price of some of the silicon. We don't plan on > hold hugh stocks of these boards as there are 18 possible fits of FPGA on > Swinyard1 by the time you consider all sizes and speed grades available. We > are planning to hold stock of a small number of variants - the LX40 and SX55 > initially more if we see the a steady market. As these FPGA are common with > our Broaddown4 product we may also have a quick assemble to order capability > but that depends highly on stock we have at any given time. > > Putting a commercial spin on what we do we can usually come up with a cost > effective solution for products in fairly low production numbers. I won't > put exact numbers on it as I'm sure someone will disagree about what is > considered cost effective but we commonly provide custom solutions for year > product volumes of 10-25 units. By the time we hit 100 off batches we aren't > China style prices but we can definately give good value in the European and > N America context. > > John Adair > Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Raggedstone1. The Low Cost Spartan-3 Development > Board. > http://www.enterpoint.co.uk > > > "Jonathan Bromley" <jonathan.bromley@MYCOMPANY.com> wrote in message > news:npe7b21ppkddj74csrgr02pvjcbcu36b7l@4ax.com... > >>On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:38:53 +0100, John Adair wrote: >> >>[...] >> >>>One of our intentions is that these modules could be used to bring >>>high technology to what are relatively low technology host boards >> >>This is a truly excellent idea. For some while I've been frustrated >>by FPGA development boards that have a ragbag of low-tech >>functionality and connectors, pushing up the price just for me >>to get something I could easily provide for myself. What you're >>offering fixes that - for many users, even in small-scale production, >>the FPGA is the only part of the system that needs fine-line >>PCBs and non-trivial assembly techniques, and a small FPGA-only >>plug-in module is the right answer. >> >>My only concern would be that you've gone for a fairly high-end >>FPGA so the entry cost is quite high. Fine for some purposes, >>but pricing itself out of a potentially useful market for others. >>Have you any plans for a significantly lower-cost product with >>a similar overall approach? >> >>Thanks >>-- >>Jonathan Bromley, Consultant >> >>DOULOS - Developing Design Know-how >>VHDL * Verilog * SystemC * e * Perl * Tcl/Tk * Project Services >> >>Doulos Ltd., 22 Market Place, Ringwood, BH24 1AW, UK >>jonathan.bromley@MYCOMPANY.com >>http://www.MYCOMPANY.com >> >>The contents of this message may contain personal views which >>are not the views of Doulos Ltd., unless specifically stated. > > >
Reply by ●July 11, 20062006-07-11
I think you have the options pretty much on target. Other than DDR2 memory, the supporting board can pretty much fill in all of the required functionality. By the way, do these GFZ connectors require gold plating on the supporting card to make proper contact? Regards, Gabor John Adair wrote:> The big issue with the GFZ connectors is that they themselves are not low > cost and tend to set a base cost for the module that takes it out of the > very low cost sector. However we have on our roadmap a FX12 module that is > going to use our DIl style connectors at the lower end. We are also > considering the same as a Spartan-3 solution. Other variations of the theme > we are considering are a module that breaks out a BGA usable PGA on 2.54mm. > We have already done that on a non-FPGA part for a very fine pitch BGA and > in a reasonably economic way for one of our customers. > > The Swinyard2 board will cover a cheaper sector than the Swinyard1 that you > can see on the website. Also if you are considering a small production run > there is room for discounting on Swinyard1. We are pricing on small batch > assembly costs due to the price of some of the silicon. We don't plan on > hold hugh stocks of these boards as there are 18 possible fits of FPGA on > Swinyard1 by the time you consider all sizes and speed grades available. We > are planning to hold stock of a small number of variants - the LX40 and SX55 > initially more if we see the a steady market. As these FPGA are common with > our Broaddown4 product we may also have a quick assemble to order capability > but that depends highly on stock we have at any given time. > > Putting a commercial spin on what we do we can usually come up with a cost > effective solution for products in fairly low production numbers. I won't > put exact numbers on it as I'm sure someone will disagree about what is > considered cost effective but we commonly provide custom solutions for year > product volumes of 10-25 units. By the time we hit 100 off batches we aren't > China style prices but we can definately give good value in the European and > N America context. > > John Adair > Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Raggedstone1. The Low Cost Spartan-3 Development > Board. > http://www.enterpoint.co.uk > > > "Jonathan Bromley" <jonathan.bromley@MYCOMPANY.com> wrote in message > news:npe7b21ppkddj74csrgr02pvjcbcu36b7l@4ax.com... > > On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:38:53 +0100, John Adair wrote: > > > > [...] > >> One of our intentions is that these modules could be used to bring > >>high technology to what are relatively low technology host boards > > > > This is a truly excellent idea. For some while I've been frustrated > > by FPGA development boards that have a ragbag of low-tech > > functionality and connectors, pushing up the price just for me > > to get something I could easily provide for myself. What you're > > offering fixes that - for many users, even in small-scale production, > > the FPGA is the only part of the system that needs fine-line > > PCBs and non-trivial assembly techniques, and a small FPGA-only > > plug-in module is the right answer. > > > > My only concern would be that you've gone for a fairly high-end > > FPGA so the entry cost is quite high. Fine for some purposes, > > but pricing itself out of a potentially useful market for others. > > Have you any plans for a significantly lower-cost product with > > a similar overall approach? > > > > Thanks > > -- > > Jonathan Bromley, Consultant > > > > DOULOS - Developing Design Know-how > > VHDL * Verilog * SystemC * e * Perl * Tcl/Tk * Project Services > > > > Doulos Ltd., 22 Market Place, Ringwood, BH24 1AW, UK > > jonathan.bromley@MYCOMPANY.com > > http://www.MYCOMPANY.com > > > > The contents of this message may contain personal views which > > are not the views of Doulos Ltd., unless specifically stated.
Reply by ●July 11, 20062006-07-11
Well hang on a bit and you may be pleasantly surprised. We have had this idea around for a while and done something similar for a 0.5mm pitch BGA already. It is just a matter of finding a spare day or so from my team to do it. If we do this design ideally would like to line up with a common;y available ZIF PGA, or standard, socket allowing easy and low risk attachment to a board. Eli Hughes wrote:> I would **LOVE** A module with a 2.54MM PGA form factor. Something with > just the basics (decoupling caps, etc). (I am envsioning something that > looks like an old socket 7 intel chip) > > I work in research where we do alot of our own PCBs and hand-solding, > but cannot afford BGA. I only do 2 or 3 boards for a particular > project. This limits my ability to use FPGA technology. I would love > it if Xilinx still made things in PGA packages...... Alot fo the > develop boards are big and clunky. I just want a module. this also > makes thngs a bit more modular so I can swap things out later. > > Cost really isn' tthat big of an issue for me. I need prototyping ability. > > -Eli Hughes > > > > > John Adair wrote: > > The big issue with the GFZ connectors is that they themselves are not low > > cost and tend to set a base cost for the module that takes it out of the > > very low cost sector. However we have on our roadmap a FX12 module that is > > going to use our DIl style connectors at the lower end. We are also > > considering the same as a Spartan-3 solution. Other variations of the theme > > we are considering are a module that breaks out a BGA usable PGA on 2.54mm. > > We have already done that on a non-FPGA part for a very fine pitch BGA and > > in a reasonably economic way for one of our customers. > > > > The Swinyard2 board will cover a cheaper sector than the Swinyard1 that you > > can see on the website. Also if you are considering a small production run > > there is room for discounting on Swinyard1. We are pricing on small batch > > assembly costs due to the price of some of the silicon. We don't plan on > > hold hugh stocks of these boards as there are 18 possible fits of FPGA on > > Swinyard1 by the time you consider all sizes and speed grades available. We > > are planning to hold stock of a small number of variants - the LX40 and SX55 > > initially more if we see the a steady market. As these FPGA are common with > > our Broaddown4 product we may also have a quick assemble to order capability > > but that depends highly on stock we have at any given time. > > > > Putting a commercial spin on what we do we can usually come up with a cost > > effective solution for products in fairly low production numbers. I won't > > put exact numbers on it as I'm sure someone will disagree about what is > > considered cost effective but we commonly provide custom solutions for year > > product volumes of 10-25 units. By the time we hit 100 off batches we aren't > > China style prices but we can definately give good value in the European and > > N America context. > > > > John Adair > > Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Raggedstone1. The Low Cost Spartan-3 Development > > Board. > > http://www.enterpoint.co.uk > > > > > > "Jonathan Bromley" <jonathan.bromley@MYCOMPANY.com> wrote in message > > news:npe7b21ppkddj74csrgr02pvjcbcu36b7l@4ax.com... > > > >>On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:38:53 +0100, John Adair wrote: > >> > >>[...] > >> > >>>One of our intentions is that these modules could be used to bring > >>>high technology to what are relatively low technology host boards > >> > >>This is a truly excellent idea. For some while I've been frustrated > >>by FPGA development boards that have a ragbag of low-tech > >>functionality and connectors, pushing up the price just for me > >>to get something I could easily provide for myself. What you're > >>offering fixes that - for many users, even in small-scale production, > >>the FPGA is the only part of the system that needs fine-line > >>PCBs and non-trivial assembly techniques, and a small FPGA-only > >>plug-in module is the right answer. > >> > >>My only concern would be that you've gone for a fairly high-end > >>FPGA so the entry cost is quite high. Fine for some purposes, > >>but pricing itself out of a potentially useful market for others. > >>Have you any plans for a significantly lower-cost product with > >>a similar overall approach? > >> > >>Thanks > >>-- > >>Jonathan Bromley, Consultant > >> > >>DOULOS - Developing Design Know-how > >>VHDL * Verilog * SystemC * e * Perl * Tcl/Tk * Project Services > >> > >>Doulos Ltd., 22 Market Place, Ringwood, BH24 1AW, UK > >>jonathan.bromley@MYCOMPANY.com > >>http://www.MYCOMPANY.com > >> > >>The contents of this message may contain personal views which > >>are not the views of Doulos Ltd., unless specifically stated. > > > > > >
Reply by ●July 11, 20062006-07-11
I think a flat board finish is good thing and one that does not have any nasty oxidising habits. We have done a reasonable amount of testing on some of Broaddown2 boards that have been around our lab for about 2 years. Those particular boards have a siliver finish and not the hard gold finish that would have been optional and whilst there is an obvious level of aging on the finish on the ones we have tested there don't appear to be any problems in any connections. What I would not do with a GFZ connector is use them in harsh environments. That said we don't expect our development boards to be subject to such use although ocasionally we do hear reports of boards ending up in some very strange places that we didn't expect. Gabor wrote:> I think you have the options pretty much on target. Other than DDR2 > memory, the supporting board can pretty much fill in all of the > required > functionality. > > By the way, do these GFZ connectors require gold plating on the > supporting card to make proper contact? > > Regards, > Gabor > > John Adair wrote: > > The big issue with the GFZ connectors is that they themselves are not low > > cost and tend to set a base cost for the module that takes it out of the > > very low cost sector. However we have on our roadmap a FX12 module that is > > going to use our DIl style connectors at the lower end. We are also > > considering the same as a Spartan-3 solution. Other variations of the theme > > we are considering are a module that breaks out a BGA usable PGA on 2.54mm. > > We have already done that on a non-FPGA part for a very fine pitch BGA and > > in a reasonably economic way for one of our customers. > > > > The Swinyard2 board will cover a cheaper sector than the Swinyard1 that you > > can see on the website. Also if you are considering a small production run > > there is room for discounting on Swinyard1. We are pricing on small batch > > assembly costs due to the price of some of the silicon. We don't plan on > > hold hugh stocks of these boards as there are 18 possible fits of FPGA on > > Swinyard1 by the time you consider all sizes and speed grades available. We > > are planning to hold stock of a small number of variants - the LX40 and SX55 > > initially more if we see the a steady market. As these FPGA are common with > > our Broaddown4 product we may also have a quick assemble to order capability > > but that depends highly on stock we have at any given time. > > > > Putting a commercial spin on what we do we can usually come up with a cost > > effective solution for products in fairly low production numbers. I won't > > put exact numbers on it as I'm sure someone will disagree about what is > > considered cost effective but we commonly provide custom solutions for year > > product volumes of 10-25 units. By the time we hit 100 off batches we aren't > > China style prices but we can definately give good value in the European and > > N America context. > > > > John Adair > > Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Raggedstone1. The Low Cost Spartan-3 Development > > Board. > > http://www.enterpoint.co.uk > > > > > > "Jonathan Bromley" <jonathan.bromley@MYCOMPANY.com> wrote in message > > news:npe7b21ppkddj74csrgr02pvjcbcu36b7l@4ax.com... > > > On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:38:53 +0100, John Adair wrote: > > > > > > [...] > > >> One of our intentions is that these modules could be used to bring > > >>high technology to what are relatively low technology host boards > > > > > > This is a truly excellent idea. For some while I've been frustrated > > > by FPGA development boards that have a ragbag of low-tech > > > functionality and connectors, pushing up the price just for me > > > to get something I could easily provide for myself. What you're > > > offering fixes that - for many users, even in small-scale production, > > > the FPGA is the only part of the system that needs fine-line > > > PCBs and non-trivial assembly techniques, and a small FPGA-only > > > plug-in module is the right answer. > > > > > > My only concern would be that you've gone for a fairly high-end > > > FPGA so the entry cost is quite high. Fine for some purposes, > > > but pricing itself out of a potentially useful market for others. > > > Have you any plans for a significantly lower-cost product with > > > a similar overall approach? > > > > > > Thanks > > > -- > > > Jonathan Bromley, Consultant > > > > > > DOULOS - Developing Design Know-how > > > VHDL * Verilog * SystemC * e * Perl * Tcl/Tk * Project Services > > > > > > Doulos Ltd., 22 Market Place, Ringwood, BH24 1AW, UK > > > jonathan.bromley@MYCOMPANY.com > > > http://www.MYCOMPANY.com > > > > > > The contents of this message may contain personal views which > > > are not the views of Doulos Ltd., unless specifically stated.
Reply by ●July 11, 20062006-07-11
"John Adair" <removethisthenleavejea@replacewithcompanyname.co.uk> wrote in message news:1152620387.58731.0@iris.uk.clara.net...> Following our recent Swinyard1 (Virtex-4) release we are now looking at > the Swinyard2 module concept which will be based on a middle end Virtex-5 > (initial XC5VLX50 and others) that will be supported by our Broaddown > series of main development boards. Bearing in mind this a small module > what features would you like us to put on this module? > > and what did you all think of the general Swinyard concept? > > This is you chance to influence what we deliver to the marketplace so do > let > us know.Well, I would want a board that can mate with 0.1" drilled prototyping boards that I can build experimental circuits. I'd like to be able to connect a logic analyser with readily obtainable IDC cable instead of specialist probes. I'd like to be able to buy just the minimal FPGA board and buy plug-in modules for the features I choose. I'd like a board that can slot into racks for 100mm wide cards. See: http://www.howell1964.freeserve.co.uk/logic/burched/fpga_devkit_b5.htm for a list of features and reasons for them. Your Swinyard module is fine but seems like it needs a specially designed PCB to mate with the solderless connector. That cuts out customers who don't want to get such boards made up.
