Steve wrote:> > "John_H" <johnhandwork@mail.com> wrote in message news:<Q1PVb.3$sR4.6932@news-west.eli.net>... > > In reality, this is > > setting a suggested price; some stores have a different price sticker on top > > of the pre-printed amount. Semiconductor manufacturers provide their > > distributors and sales people with price books that give parts and grades > > for what is available. There is no harm in this. Better prices can be had, > > but only if you TALK with the people involved, either the Xilinx sales folks > > or the distributor's sales people. > > And what volume per annum would TALKING to the people start getting > you discounts? 50k per annum or some such ridiculously high figure > that start-ups cannot get to?I have found that a 1k per year quantity will get you discounts. Actually, I got a decent discount once when I was saying I would buy in lots of 100 and I was quoted a price for 100 per year! That was on an Altera part if I remember correctly. In another case, I was given the qty 50,000 price when I was promising 1k per year. Both Xilinx and Altera have lots of room to discount from the list price. But if you are only buying 100 total, I don't see how the parts cost you will get standard will affect your competitiveness. At low volumes there are much larger costs that dominate your pricing; NRE (design and prototyping), support, even the cost of sales. If you aren't making 1000 or more of something the cost of the parts is not going to break you. -- Rick "rickman" Collins rick.collins@XYarius.com Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY removed. Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com 4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
Do Xilinx Fix Their Prices?
Started by ●February 5, 2004
Reply by ●February 10, 20042004-02-10
Reply by ●February 10, 20042004-02-10
steve41@totalise.co.uk (Steve) wrote in message> > > > Xilinx have a revenue of $1.2bn according to this: > > > > > > http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=xlnx > > > > > > Are you seriously trying to say that the cost of an FPGA > > > representative being asked questions has anything other than a > > > negligible effect on the prices of FPGAs? > > > > In-state factory FAEs, Disty FAEs. Sales teams that must be incentivized > > to drum up demand for new parts. Then customers who go out and convert > > their FPGA to CGAs as soon as production ramps up. > > > > FPGAs are not like CPUs. They are often prototype platforms. > > Low volume, abandoned by the customer as soon as the design is > > stable and can be converted to a CGA or ASIC. > > > Read the statements that the Xilinx suits say about ASICs vs FPGAs, > they say that ASICs are frequently being *replaced* by FPGAs.In small volumes.> > > > FPGAs are inexpensive in my view, > > > In large quantities, not in small quantities.How much would it cost to design and build an ASIC with a total production run of say 10? Versus and FPGA. FPGAs are much cheaper.> > > > and the software tools are > > amazing. It's a good time to be an engineer. > > > Do you work for a large company that buys FPGAs in large quantities by > any chance? >Actually, I buy them in very small volumes. Small company. Very reasonable pricing, very good value for what you get. In fact, I used to work at a large company, and based on that experience, it is large companies that get raped. On one project I worked on, we were being charged $400/fpga that was being sold to new customers for $100. The lowered the price when we noticed, but did not refund the money on the devices we purchased.> > > But if you know a way to bring the equivalent of a Xilinx offering > > for 25% of the price, join the marketplace, please. > > > My point is that unless you buy in large quantities then small or > start-up companies can't put Xilinx parts in their products because > they're too expensive.Sure they can. It is done all the time. You just need to find a niche. Maybe you could start a company selling inexpensive FPGAs to small start ups. If you're having trouble coming to market with an FPGA based system, you would probably have trouble coming to market with an ASIC.
Reply by ●February 10, 20042004-02-10
rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<40286B1C.8BD933C4@yahoo.com>...> Jan Panteltje wrote: > > > > On a sunny day (Mon, 09 Feb 2004 13:21:48 -0800) it happened Peter Alfke > > <peter@xilinx.com> wrote in <4027F9ED.F7C82422@xilinx.com>: > > > > >If you build something in small volume, everything is expensive: design > > >effort, pc-boards, most components, testing, marketing, advertising, > > >selling, servicing etc. You must have a really good product to absorb > > >all these high costs. That's life. > > >Peter Alfke > > Hey, of cause things are expensive. > > Now log in to www.microchip.com > > Find a PIC, you can enter a quantity and order right there. > > Whats your problem? > > Perfect for small business. > > And you will pay some 3 or 4 times what you would pay if you were buying > 1000's. I know, I have looked. >How is this any different than any other product? Resistors, for example. Go to digikey and try to buy 3 0805 100 Ohm resistors. Your price per resistor will be much higher than if you bought several dozen reels from a distributor.> -- > > Rick "rickman" Collins > > rick.collins@XYarius.com > Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY > removed. > > Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company > Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com > 4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice > Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
Reply by ●February 10, 20042004-02-10
Rick Collins <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<402559B3.AFBBB736@yahoo.com>...> ... And they will very much limit the > amount of support they give you if you are not a large customer.Xilinx gives me good support. Great support. It might be that I have found documentation errors, errors in unisim/simprim models, and that my questions are usually (but not always) valid. I don't call asking why my code is resulting in a latch, for example. I sometimes ask a stupid question, but I try not to. All this while I am a small customer. It might be that I have worked in the past for large companies. It might be luck. The Xilinx support web site sometimes bites in the performance department, but I get great support when it is working, and good support from local (factory and disty) FAEs if they aren't swamped. I have also received good support from Actel and Altera. I received good support from Actel on a part that they new was going to be used in test equipment, that they knew we would only buy 3 of their devices for...
Reply by ●February 10, 20042004-02-10
William Wallace wrote:> rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<40286B1C.8BD933C4@yahoo.com>...<snip>>> >>And you will pay some 3 or 4 times what you would pay if you were buying >>1000's. I know, I have looked. >> > > > How is this any different than any other product? Resistors, for > example. Go to digikey and try to buy 3 0805 100 Ohm resistors. Your > price per resistor will be much higher than if you bought several > dozen reels from a distributor.I don't think anyone expects a flat price curve ( except in the promotion special case I mentioned earlier ). What is at issue, is the lazy application of the jelly-bean-resistor type price curves to much more expensive parts. Each sales transacton has a cost, and each customer call has a cost, but those costs do not scale with the device price. eg A price structure that has a 1 off price of $15, and volume price of $4 is probably OK to most users. What's harder to justify, is a 1 off price of $150, and volume price of $40. In one case you are saying "it costs $11 more to handle small volumes" - fine, but how can that possibly justify $110 extra on the larger device - ? -jg
Reply by ●February 10, 20042004-02-10
Interesting thread. I reply to the top message because of the many tentacles the thread developed. Yes, of course, we would all like to pay less. No question about it. And, it does hurt to have serious doubts about whether or not a product might be viable mainly due to the cost of the FPGA's you'll need in small quantities. I understand this very well. The error here might be a good-old standard in business: communication. Talk to your sales rep. Contact Xilinx/Altera. Let them know what you are doing. Explain what problems you have. There are real people behind the emails, websites, brochures and chips. Make contact. You'd be surprised to learn what can be achieved with a little bit of effort. From the perspective of a small company I can tell you that I'm blown away to see the effort put forth recently (and continuing) to support us. This both by Xilinx and Avnet. Both of these companies could afford to loose our business and they wouldn't even know it happened. However, like I said, there are people behind it all. Never forget that. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Martin Euredjian To send private email: 0_0_0_0_@pacbell.net where "0_0_0_0_" = "martineu" "Steve" <steve41@totalise.co.uk> wrote in message news:4d3ee211.0402050950.69f50597@posting.google.com...> I've been looking for historical prices of FPGAs to try and get an > idea of what I might expect to get for a given price for small > quantities and came across this post: > > http://tinyurl.com/36blb > > which has a price table for small quantities (<=25) for January 2000: > > Spartan > XCS05 3PC84C 10.00 > XCS10 3PC84C 18.10 > XCS20 3PQ208C 40.40 > XCS30 3PQ208C 45.35 > XCS40 3PQ208C 49.15 > > Virtex > XCV50 4PQ240C 55.40 > XCV100 4PQ240C 104.00 > XCV150 4PQ240C 128.00 > XCV200 4PQ240C 157.00 > XCV300 4PQ240C 244.00 > XCV400 4HQ240C 344.00 > XCV600 4HQ240C 581.00 > XCV800 4HQ240C 860.00 > > > I compared the above prices with the prices on these web pages, that I > assume are up to date because they stock up to date chips: > > Spartan: http://www.plis.ru/price.html?ID=121 > Virtex: http://www.plis.ru/price.html?ID=111 > > and all of the prices on the Russian website are exactly the same > price today as they were from a different supplier in January 2000. > > Why are they exactly the same price? > > Do Xilinx tell their resellers what to charge? And if so, isn't this > illegal? > > Also, why is there such an enormous price difference per part between > massive quantities and smaller quantities? Xilinx make X million of > part Y, so why do they charge so many hundred percent higher prices > for small quantities than very large quantities? > > As there is such a huge difference in prices between large and small > quantities, why isn't there a supplier that buys largish quantities to > sell in smaller quantities so that the supplier makes a profit and the > purchaser of small quantities gets chips cheaper? > > Also, what does happen to FPGA prices over time? Do they just reach a > final value and they never get any cheaper? That would explain why > prices would be very similar in 2000 and 2004, but not why they're > identical. You can get a Spartan 2E XC2S150E-6PQ208C for $20.45 from > the above Russian website today. What might you expect to be able to > get for $20 in, say, 2 years' time? > > -- > Steve >
Reply by ●February 11, 20042004-02-11
William Wallace wrote:> rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<40286B1C.8BD933C4@yahoo.com>... > >>Jan Panteltje wrote: >> >>>On a sunny day (Mon, 09 Feb 2004 13:21:48 -0800) it happened Peter Alfke >>><peter@xilinx.com> wrote in <4027F9ED.F7C82422@xilinx.com>: >>> >>> >>>>If you build something in small volume, everything is expensive: design >>>>effort, pc-boards, most components, testing, marketing, advertising, >>>>selling, servicing etc. You must have a really good product to absorb >>>>all these high costs. That's life. >>>>Peter Alfke >>> >>>Hey, of cause things are expensive. >>>Now log in to www.microchip.com >>>Find a PIC, you can enter a quantity and order right there. >>>Whats your problem? >>>Perfect for small business. >> >>And you will pay some 3 or 4 times what you would pay if you were buying >>1000's. I know, I have looked. >> > > > How is this any different than any other product? Resistors, for > example. Go to digikey and try to buy 3 0805 100 Ohm resistors. Your > price per resistor will be much higher than if you bought several > dozen reels from a distributor.Yes, then add 15$ for shipping the 3 resistors. Or 30$ or so for express delivery. Rene
Reply by ●February 11, 20042004-02-11
Peter Alfke <peter@xilinx.com> wrote in message news:<4029259F.1BC8DDF6@xilinx.com>...> This is really simple, Capitalism 101: > > Manufacturer invents and makes part. > Uses seval competing distributors to sell the part to the public. > Manufacturer optimizes his profit by charging distributor a certain > price, and also publishes a pricebook with "Manufacturer Recommended > Resale Price" MSRP. > Distributor can sell in any quantity and for any price he wants, high or > low, but he will try to optimize his profit. > Customer will buy at the lowest possible price consistent with the > desired level of service and support. > This is true for food, shirts, cars, and ICs. For Tiffany's, Nordstrom, > Safeway and CostCo.This is really simple; Oligopoly 101: Oligopolists value high order quantities highly and small order quantities as not being worth the hassle. Oligopolists watch competitors and are happy if all oligopolists in the market view small order quantities as not being worth the hassle. Certain oligopolists have a high vested interest in having smooth and monotonic price vs size curves, which can be maintained by having few distributors, and *possibly* a say on the prices they charge to buyers, and *possibly* exert pressure on distributors to toe the line. Oligopolists are happy. Those wanting to buy small order quantities are screwed.> But rest assured that we are seriously looking at ways to improve the > plight of the low-volume customer. Some of your complaints did not fall > on deaf ears.I'll quote the British phrase "the proof of the pudding is in the eating", or in other words I'll believe that when small quantity prices come down... -- Steve
Reply by ●February 11, 20042004-02-11
The Columbia Encyclopedia describes oligopoly as: ...the control of supply by a few producers...or by agreements among members of an industry to restrain price competition... Does that describe your impression of the relationship between X and A ? Wow ! Peter Alfke =========================== Steve wrote:> This is really simple; Oligopoly 101: > > Oligopolists value high order quantities highly and small order > quantities as not being worth the hassle. > Oligopolists watch competitors and are happy if all oligopolists in > the market view small order quantities as not being worth the hassle. > Certain oligopolists have a high vested interest in having smooth and > monotonic price vs size curves, which can be maintained by having few > distributors, and *possibly* a say on the prices they charge to > buyers, and *possibly* exert pressure on distributors to toe the line. > Oligopolists are happy. > Those wanting to buy small order quantities are screwed. > > > But rest assured that we are seriously looking at ways to improve the > > plight of the low-volume customer. Some of your complaints did not fall > > on deaf ears. > > I'll quote the British phrase "the proof of the pudding is in the > eating", or in other words I'll believe that when small quantity > prices come down... > > -- > Steve
Reply by ●February 11, 20042004-02-11
When was the last time you asked for technical support on a resistor? Part of the pricing pays for the tech support, which is more or less a per customer charge rather than a per piece charge. Naturally, if you are buying a large quantity, the tech support per peice is going to be considerably less. Tech support is one of the distributor's largest costs. Jim Granville wrote:> William Wallace wrote: > > rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<40286B1C.8BD933C4@yahoo.com>... > <snip> > >> > >>And you will pay some 3 or 4 times what you would pay if you were buying > >>1000's. I know, I have looked. > >> > > > > > > How is this any different than any other product? Resistors, for > > example. Go to digikey and try to buy 3 0805 100 Ohm resistors. Your > > price per resistor will be much higher than if you bought several > > dozen reels from a distributor. > > I don't think anyone expects a flat price curve ( except in the > promotion special case I mentioned earlier ). > > What is at issue, is the lazy application of the jelly-bean-resistor > type price curves to much more expensive parts. > > Each sales transacton has a cost, and each customer call has a cost, > but those costs do not scale with the device price. > > eg > A price structure that has a 1 off price of $15, and volume price of $4 > is probably OK to most users. > What's harder to justify, is a 1 off price of $150, and volume price of > $40. > In one case you are saying "it costs $11 more to handle small volumes" > - fine, but how can that possibly justify $110 extra on the larger > device - ? > > -jg-- --Ray Andraka, P.E. President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc. 401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950 email ray@andraka.com http://www.andraka.com "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, 1759
