Non-volatile FPGA in a small package

I am looking for my usual FPGA in a small package.  This is a contract
design and the customer has a preference to avoid BGAs.  The only
leaded part that will fit the board is a 100 pin TQFP.  I found a
couple of MAX II devices in this package and Lattice has some MACHXO
parts as well as one XP part.  Of the three, I like the XP better as
it has 3000 LUTs to work with as well as PLLs.

Lattice also has an XP2 line which should be lower cost/higher density
as well as lower power.  But they don't seem to be available yet.  I
don't see stock on any parts and it looks like they are not supporting
the TQ100 package.

I also wanted to consider the Xilinx XC3S-AN parts.  The combinations
of device and package are very limited with a one to one
relationship.  Each part comes in a different package and *only* that
package.  So there is no chance to upgrade to a different density part
once you design the board.  Of course, I don't think this is a real
issues for this app, since any of the FPGA types are well large
enough.  But I also can't find any pricing.  The other parts are all
in the $10 - $15 range.  I have no idea if the XC3S-AN is in that same
range.

So does anyone know if the Lattice XP2 and the Xilinx XC3S-AN parts
are ready for prime time?  Should I skip these parts and go with one
of the other choices?  BTW, the customer has experience with the
Altera parts and can already program them in system.  So that is a
definite plus for the MAX II.  But it is otherwise at the back of the
field with the least available LUTs and no PLL.  So I really want to
use a different part.

Hi Rick,
Dunno if this helps, saw it in EDN yesterday.
http://www.edn.com/article/CA6495296.html?nid=3351&rid=588729451

"High noon for FPGAs: Low-cost-versus- high-end showdown
Greenhorns in the high-end-FPGA market, Lattice and Actel are shooting it 
out against old hands Xilinx and Altera in the battle for low-cost devices."
HTH., Syms. 

rickman wrote:
> I am looking for my usual FPGA in a small package.  This is a contract
> design and the customer has a preference to avoid BGAs.  The only
> leaded part that will fit the board is a 100 pin TQFP.  I found a
> couple of MAX II devices in this package and Lattice has some MACHXO
> parts as well as one XP part.  Of the three, I like the XP better as
> it has 3000 LUTs to work with as well as PLLs.
> 
> Lattice also has an XP2 line which should be lower cost/higher density
> as well as lower power.  But they don't seem to be available yet.  I
> don't see stock on any parts and it looks like they are not supporting
> the TQ100 package.
> 
> I also wanted to consider the Xilinx XC3S-AN parts.  The combinations
> of device and package are very limited with a one to one
> relationship.  Each part comes in a different package and *only* that
> package.  So there is no chance to upgrade to a different density part
> once you design the board.  Of course, I don't think this is a real
> issues for this app, since any of the FPGA types are well large
> enough.  But I also can't find any pricing.  The other parts are all
> in the $10 - $15 range.  I have no idea if the XC3S-AN is in that same
> range.
> 
> So does anyone know if the Lattice XP2 and the Xilinx XC3S-AN parts
> are ready for prime time?  Should I skip these parts and go with one
> of the other choices?  BTW, the customer has experience with the
> Altera parts and can already program them in system.  So that is a
> definite plus for the MAX II.  But it is otherwise at the back of the
> field with the least available LUTs and no PLL.  So I really want to
> use a different part.

Missing from the 'usual suspects' list seems to be Actel ?

I see their IGLOO series offers both VQ100 and QFN132 ?

VQ100 (14 x 14 mm)  	79  	71  	71  	68/13  	   	   	
QN132 (8 x 8 mm) 	81 	80 	84 	87/19

-jg

The Spartan-3AN family recently went into full production, with the XC3S50AN 
release imminent.  I would say that they are ready for prime time.  Pricing 
is definitely in the same range, partly as a result of the very limited 
package options - see the press release from the announcement, which notes a 
sub-$5 price for the XC3S200AN 
(http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/2007/silicon_spart/0734_spartan3an.htm).  Or 
you can get a Spartan-3AN Starter Kit with an XC3S700AN for only $225 
(http://www.xilinx.com/xlnx/xebiz/designResources/ip_product_details.jsp?key=HW-SPAR3AN-SK-UNI-G-PROMO&sGlobalNavPick=PRODUCTS&sSecondaryNavPick=BOARDS) 
Unfortunately it takes a while to get pricing and availability onto 
distributor web sites, but that will come soon.

Marc Baker
Xilinx

"rickman" <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1194472016.283388.97470@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>I am looking for my usual FPGA in a small package.  This is a contract
> design and the customer has a preference to avoid BGAs.  The only
> leaded part that will fit the board is a 100 pin TQFP.  I found a
> couple of MAX II devices in this package and Lattice has some MACHXO
> parts as well as one XP part.  Of the three, I like the XP better as
> it has 3000 LUTs to work with as well as PLLs.
>
> Lattice also has an XP2 line which should be lower cost/higher density
> as well as lower power.  But they don't seem to be available yet.  I
> don't see stock on any parts and it looks like they are not supporting
> the TQ100 package.
>
> I also wanted to consider the Xilinx XC3S-AN parts.  The combinations
> of device and package are very limited with a one to one
> relationship.  Each part comes in a different package and *only* that
> package.  So there is no chance to upgrade to a different density part
> once you design the board.  Of course, I don't think this is a real
> issues for this app, since any of the FPGA types are well large
> enough.  But I also can't find any pricing.  The other parts are all
> in the $10 - $15 range.  I have no idea if the XC3S-AN is in that same
> range.
>
> So does anyone know if the Lattice XP2 and the Xilinx XC3S-AN parts
> are ready for prime time?  Should I skip these parts and go with one
> of the other choices?  BTW, the customer has experience with the
> Altera parts and can already program them in system.  So that is a
> definite plus for the MAX II.  But it is otherwise at the back of the
> field with the least available LUTs and no PLL.  So I really want to
> use a different part.
> 

On Nov 7, 2:46 pm, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am looking for my usual FPGA in a small package.  This is a contract
> design and the customer has a preference to avoid BGAs.  The only
> leaded part that will fit the board is a 100 pin TQFP.  I found a
> couple of MAX II devices in this package and Lattice has some MACHXO
> parts as well as one XP part.  Of the three, I like the XP better as
> it has 3000 LUTs to work with as well as PLLs.
>
> Lattice also has an XP2 line which should be lower cost/higher density
> as well as lower power.  But they don't seem to be available yet.  I
> don't see stock on any parts and it looks like they are not supporting
> the TQ100 package.
>
> I also wanted to consider the Xilinx XC3S-AN parts.  The combinations
> of device and package are very limited with a one to one
> relationship.  Each part comes in a different package and *only* that
> package.  So there is no chance to upgrade to a different density part
> once you design the board.  Of course, I don't think this is a real
> issues for this app, since any of the FPGA types are well large
> enough.  But I also can't find any pricing.  The other parts are all
> in the $10 - $15 range.  I have no idea if the XC3S-AN is in that same
> range.
>
> So does anyone know if the Lattice XP2 and the Xilinx XC3S-AN parts
> are ready for prime time?  Should I skip these parts and go with one
> of the other choices?  BTW, the customer has experience with the
> Altera parts and can already program them in system.  So that is a
> definite plus for the MAX II.  But it is otherwise at the back of the
> field with the least available LUTs and no PLL.  So I really want to
> use a different part.

Hi Rick,

Just wanted to let you know that XP2-5 engineering samples are
available now (and the FPGA should be in production by the end of the
year). TQ100 package isn't supported though, however if your customer
will agree to change the anti-BGA preference there is very small 132
pin csBGA package (8x8 mm, only three rows of pins going around the
perimeter) available.

Alex

On Nov 7, 6:54 pm, Alex <engin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 7, 2:46 pm, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I am looking for my usual FPGA in a small package.  This is a contract
> > design and the customer has a preference to avoid BGAs.  The only
> > leaded part that will fit the board is a 100 pin TQFP.  I found a
> > couple of MAX II devices in this package and Lattice has some MACHXO
> > parts as well as one XP part.  Of the three, I like the XP better as
> > it has 3000 LUTs to work with as well as PLLs.
>
> > Lattice also has an XP2 line which should be lower cost/higher density
> > as well as lower power.  But they don't seem to be available yet.  I
> > don't see stock on any parts and it looks like they are not supporting
> > the TQ100 package.
>
> > I also wanted to consider the Xilinx XC3S-AN parts.  The combinations
> > of device and package are very limited with a one to one
> > relationship.  Each part comes in a different package and *only* that
> > package.  So there is no chance to upgrade to a different density part
> > once you design the board.  Of course, I don't think this is a real
> > issues for this app, since any of the FPGA types are well large
> > enough.  But I also can't find any pricing.  The other parts are all
> > in the $10 - $15 range.  I have no idea if the XC3S-AN is in that same
> > range.
>
> > So does anyone know if the Lattice XP2 and the Xilinx XC3S-AN parts
> > are ready for prime time?  Should I skip these parts and go with one
> > of the other choices?  BTW, the customer has experience with the
> > Altera parts and can already program them in system.  So that is a
> > definite plus for the MAX II.  But it is otherwise at the back of the
> > field with the least available LUTs and no PLL.  So I really want to
> > use a different part.
>
> Hi Rick,
>
> Just wanted to let you know that XP2-5 engineering samples are
> available now (and the FPGA should be in production by the end of the
> year). TQ100 package isn't supported though, however if your customer
> will agree to change the anti-BGA preference there is very small 132
> pin csBGA package (8x8 mm, only three rows of pins going around the
> perimeter) available.
>
> Alex


Ok, that is good to know.  But I still don't have any idea of the
price.  I would have thought that these parts would be a bit cheaper
than the XP line, but it looks like the smallest member of the family
is a bit bigger than in the XP line and has a lot more features.  So I
don't know if it will be any cheaper and may actually be a lot more
expensive since it only comes in packages with higher pin counts.  I
know that price correlates very strongly with I/O count.

Other than the issues with customer confidence (he had a bad
experience with Lattice tools once) either the XP or the MachXO line
seem to provide the most flexibility.  The XP is a lot larger and has
the PLL that I might need.  The MachXO uses the TQ100 package for all
four device sizes and the two largest also have a PLL.  The one
advantage of the Altera chips is that they appear to support a user
flash memory while the Lattice parts don't seem to have that.  This is
not a show stopper, just something to note.

Looking at the tools, it is not clear to me if I can really evaluate
them using ispLever Starter.  This package seems to not include the
full set of tools including the simulator and programmer.  So I can't
actually program a device with the starter tool, right?  Is the
simulator that comes with the ispLever package limited in any way?
The web site does not describe it very well.

On Nov 7, 6:34 pm, "Marc A. Baker" <marc.ba...@xilinx.com> wrote:
> The Spartan-3AN family recently went into full production, with the XC3S50AN
> release imminent.  I would say that they are ready for prime time.  Pricing
> is definitely in the same range, partly as a result of the very limited
> package options - see the press release from the announcement, which notes a
> sub-$5 price for the XC3S200AN
> (http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/2007/silicon_spart/0734_spartan3an.htm).  Or
> you can get a Spartan-3AN Starter Kit with an XC3S700AN for only $225
> (http://www.xilinx.com/xlnx/xebiz/designResources/ip_product_details.j...)
> Unfortunately it takes a while to get pricing and availability onto
> distributor web sites, but that will come soon.
>
> Marc Baker
> Xilinx

Thanks for the info.  If the XC3S50AN is not even in production yet I
am not so sure I am ready to use it.  Xilinx does not have a good
reputation for making parts available to the masses in early
production, much less preproduction.  Besides, I still have no idea
how much it will cost.  Saying it is $5 in qty 250,000 would make me
think I could get 100 at $10 each, but past experience has shown it
can be anywhere North of $20 instead.  That would not be very
competitive.

One thing Xilinx has in its favor is the reputation of the tools.
Even the web pack version seems to be pretty good.

But the skids are greased for Altera with the customer already having
support for programming them in-system.  Too bad the MAX II parts are
not the first choice technically.

Marc A. Baker <marc.baker@xilinx.com> wrote:
> The Spartan-3AN family recently went into full production,  
> with the XC3S50ANrelease imminent.  I would say that they 
> are ready for prime time.  Pricing ...

As long as Digikey doesn't carry them, they are not ready...

-- 
Uwe Bonnes                bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de

Institut fuer Kernphysik  Schlossgartenstrasse 9  64289 Darmstadt
--------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------

<snip>
> Looking at the tools, it is not clear to me if I can really evaluate
> them using ispLever Starter.  This package seems to not include the
> full set of tools including the simulator and programmer.  So I can't
> actually program a device with the starter tool, right?  Is the
> simulator that comes with the ispLever package limited in any way?
> The web site does not describe it very well.

No simulator but programmer is there. As for a hardware they offer a
cheap parallel and pricey USB programmer. I've used ispLever Starter
in several projects IMHO it is a good tool.

Regards,
Maki

On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:28:25 -0800, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Nov 7, 6:34 pm, "Marc A. Baker" <marc.ba...@xilinx.com> wrote:
>> The Spartan-3AN family recently went into full production, with the XC3S50AN
>> release imminent.  I would say that they are ready for prime time.  Pricing
>> is definitely in the same range, partly as a result of the very limited
>> package options - see the press release from the announcement, which notes a
>> sub-$5 price for the XC3S200AN

>> Marc Baker
>> Xilinx
>
>Thanks for the info.  If the XC3S50AN is not even in production yet I
>am not so sure I am ready to use it.  Xilinx does not have a good
>reputation for making parts available to the masses in early
>production, much less preproduction.  Besides, I still have no idea
>how much it will cost.  Saying it is $5 in qty 250,000 would make me
>think I could get 100 at $10 each, but past experience has shown it
>can be anywhere North of $20 instead.  That would not be very
>competitive.

Searching em.avnet.com shows  	  XC3S50AN-4TQG144CES at $14.89 - no
stock of course, but "they say" 4 week leadtime. I believe that's a
notional 1-off price (no: "buy qty 22")  so  100-off is likely to be
closer to $14 than $5.

As for development, you can presumably use the equivalent  XC3S50A part
($12, for the -I grade, 16 in stock) to get started, and move to the -AN
when they appear. (Xilinx wouldn't make the pinouts incompatible, would
they? :-)

- Brian