RFC: ARM+FPGA tiny board

Hello group.

We would like you to share with us your comments and opinions about a
product we are planning to launch. Your feedback will be very helpful to
determine the interest in this kind of product, and important to establish
its development path and features (including, of course, price, so by
helping us you may be helping yourself ;^)

This is a low cost, low power little board (3"x2") we designed to use in our
own custom control & data acquisition projects, but the concept turned out
so nice and nifty that we are evaluating the possibility to commercialize it
as a line product. It currently has an AT91M42800A MCU from Atmel (ARM7TDMI
with an external bus), up to 1MB RAM, 1MB to 8MB Flash, integrated power
supply and a Xilinx SpartanIIe FPGA (XC2S50E or XC2S100E) with a
programmable clock oscillator. Expansion headers are provided for all
important board signals (120, including power pins), with top and bottom
stack mount capability.

Most MCU and FPGA pins are shared to provide a flexible interfacing
architecture. The FPGA can be used for logic interfacing, data processing,
video output and LCD interface, hardware UARTs and other kind of
communications, etc.

We would like to introduce this first as a basic kit with all the necessary
tools to get one started (core module, adapter board with serial
transceivers, wiggler-like JTAG programmers, software). The board itself is
a wonderful combo-kit for learning about embedded systems with the ARM
architecture and FPGAs. Most of the software and applications will be
provided as open source and a web site with useful information (application
notes, code and FPGA cores) will be set up. An eCos profile for the board
will be made available too.

We also have designs for a backplane and auto-configuring add-on modules
with analog and digital IOs, Ethernet interface, IrDA and RF transceivers,
CompactFlash interface, etc. Our idea is to make them available once we can
reinvest and verify enough demand for each kind of device.

The board can be configured for 1V-3.6V input operation using an efficient
step-up regulator,  targeted mainly for battery powered applications.
Another configuration allows not installing the FPGA and using a cheap LDO
regulator for cost-sensitive applications where the FPGA is not necessary
and power efficiency is not of concern.

You can take a look at some pre-production kit items at
http://www.embedded.cl/gallery/ARMermelator

In particular, you would help us a lot with your answers and suggestions for
the following:
- How much will you be willing to pay for a kit like this. How much for core
boards in quantities?
- Do you think the FPGA configuration (ie, FPGA present on the board) will
be useful for you? Would you choose this board over other similar products
because of its FPGA functionality?
- Concerning the kit, do you think a base board with integrated programmers,
serial transceivers and prototyping area would be more useful to you than an
adapter board and separated programmers?
- What kind of applications and solutions to your needs do you envision
using a board like this?
- Without knowing further details, your overall impression about this
product.

Well, thank you very much in advance. Sorry for the long post and sorry if
the content of this post sounded too much like marketing instead of
technical matters -- we are not trying to offend anyone but to help us all.

Warmest regards.


--
PabloBleyerKocik /
 pbleyer        /"Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability."
  @embedded.cl / -- Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

"Pablo Bleyer" <pbleyerN@SPAMembedded.cl> wrote in message
news:402c61d2_2@nova.entelchile.net...
> Hello group.
>
> We would like you to share with us your comments and opinions about a
> product we are planning to launch. Your feedback will be very helpful to
> determine the interest in this kind of product, and important to establish
> its development path and features (including, of course, price, so by
> helping us you may be helping yourself ;^)
>
> This is a low cost, low power little board (3"x2") we designed to use in
our
> own custom control & data acquisition projects, but the concept turned out
> so nice and nifty that we are evaluating the possibility to commercialize
it
> as a line product. It currently has an AT91M42800A MCU from Atmel
(ARM7TDMI
> with an external bus), up to 1MB RAM, 1MB to 8MB Flash, integrated power
> supply and a Xilinx SpartanIIe FPGA (XC2S50E or XC2S100E) with a
> programmable clock oscillator. Expansion headers are provided for all
> important board signals (120, including power pins), with top and bottom
> stack mount capability.
>
> Most MCU and FPGA pins are shared to provide a flexible interfacing
> architecture. The FPGA can be used for logic interfacing, data processing,
> video output and LCD interface, hardware UARTs and other kind of
> communications, etc.
>
> We would like to introduce this first as a basic kit with all the
necessary
> tools to get one started (core module, adapter board with serial
> transceivers, wiggler-like JTAG programmers, software). The board itself
is
> a wonderful combo-kit for learning about embedded systems with the ARM
> architecture and FPGAs. Most of the software and applications will be
> provided as open source and a web site with useful information
(application
> notes, code and FPGA cores) will be set up. An eCos profile for the board
> will be made available too.
>
> We also have designs for a backplane and auto-configuring add-on modules
> with analog and digital IOs, Ethernet interface, IrDA and RF transceivers,
> CompactFlash interface, etc. Our idea is to make them available once we
can
> reinvest and verify enough demand for each kind of device.
>
> The board can be configured for 1V-3.6V input operation using an efficient
> step-up regulator,  targeted mainly for battery powered applications.
> Another configuration allows not installing the FPGA and using a cheap LDO
> regulator for cost-sensitive applications where the FPGA is not necessary
> and power efficiency is not of concern.
>
> You can take a look at some pre-production kit items at
> http://www.embedded.cl/gallery/ARMermelator
>
> In particular, you would help us a lot with your answers and suggestions
for
> the following:
> - How much will you be willing to pay for a kit like this. How much for
core
> boards in quantities?
> - Do you think the FPGA configuration (ie, FPGA present on the board) will
> be useful for you? Would you choose this board over other similar products
> because of its FPGA functionality?
> - Concerning the kit, do you think a base board with integrated
programmers,
> serial transceivers and prototyping area would be more useful to you than
an
> adapter board and separated programmers?
> - What kind of applications and solutions to your needs do you envision
> using a board like this?
> - Without knowing further details, your overall impression about this
> product.
>
> Well, thank you very much in advance. Sorry for the long post and sorry if
> the content of this post sounded too much like marketing instead of
> technical matters -- we are not trying to offend anyone but to help us
all.
>
> Warmest regards.
>
>
> --
> PabloBleyerKocik /
>  pbleyer        /"Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability."
>   @embedded.cl / -- Edsger Wybe Dijkstra


I think the FPGA does separate it from most of the pack, though it is still
not alone. The size is quite attractive, making it lean towards a powerful
minaturized mobile application. However, the FPGA is not incredibly
power-efficient; some applications might require all the flip-flops, but a
low-power CoolRunner variation might be something to consider. They are
quite inexpensive and can fit a surprising amount of logic, I have a
four-axis (8 coil) bipolar microstepping translator and driver project that
so far fits into 128. The processor itself would probably be able to handle
many of the tasks you would use all the flip-flops for, anyway. The CPLD
also won't need to be reloaded every power cycle.

I think you what need to do is identify your competitors. In this case, I
think your main competitor is the Pocket PC series of devices, which get up
to a full day's worth of battery life, have an integrated LCD controller and
LCD, standard interfaces to memory and expansion cards, and with a 200MHz
processor and 64 megabytes of RAM can be had for less than $200. Your device
needs to make up its shortcomings in the display, memory, and standard
interface department, by pushing the programmable device aspect and large
number of high-speed user I/O. Price the device in a range where customers
won't choose instead to build their own CompactFlash interface card with a
CPLD, and end up with a more powerful system for less money. If you target
this to engineers in a production environment, you could possibly get away
with a price near $400-$500, if you have a lot of options and good support
(you've also got to compete against the popular PC104 systems, and low-power
options probably won't be a selling point). If you target to hobbyists, I
think a $175 to $250 range would be realistic though they will always buy
something cheaper if they can. Basically find a cheap ARM board and a cheap
FPGA board, and add the prices together.

Hi Pablo,

Interesting product. Some comments:

> We would like to introduce this first as a basic kit with all the necessary
> tools to get one started (core module, adapter board with serial
> transceivers, wiggler-like JTAG programmers, software). The board itself is
> a wonderful combo-kit for learning about embedded systems with the ARM

IMHO, this board is a bit complicated for introductory embedded
learning purposes. And I expect it will be a bit too expensive. You'll
be competing with sub-$200 boards from Atmel and sub-$100 ARM boards
based on other ARMs. Maybe it's better marketed as a poor-man's-ASIC
:)

> - How much will you be willing to pay for a kit like this. How much for core
> boards in quantities?

I would personally pay up to about $300 for the board and
documentation. I wouldn't pay extra for a parallel port wiggler, etc.
because I already have these tools. For "production", I would only be
willing to pay around half that price for a board including FPGA. I
would suggest preloading Angel or (better) RedBoot in ROM, not
including JTAG tools with the appliance, and letting people use it the
good old way with a serial cable.

> - Do you think the FPGA configuration (ie, FPGA present on the board) will
> be useful for you? Would you choose this board over other similar products
> because of its FPGA functionality?

The FPGA isn't directly useful to me - because I don't have enough
time to use it effectively (one-man team...) But it could become
useful if I could download canned applications from you - LCD
controller being the application of primary interest!

> - Concerning the kit, do you think a base board with integrated programmers,
> serial transceivers and prototyping area would be more useful to you than an
> adapter board and separated programmers?

Lose the prototyping area. Bring the signals to headers. I'm not
hacking stuff onto an eval board.

Hi Pablo,  

Interesting idea ;)

Our board is going to have an ARM and an FPGA tightly coupled as well. 
But we will have a lot more of course.  

Having gone down this road before, I would recommend that you used
different devices than the two you have picked.  I think you will find
it is cheaper to use an ARM with internal Flash and RAM.  Of course how
much you need depends on your application and a SOC ARM may not have
enough.  But you can sell the board with/without the external Flash and
RAM to make a low cost version possible.  

We picked the OKI ARM chips, the ML67Q5003 in particular.  It has 32 kB
RAM and 512 kB Flash on chip.  It also has tons of IO and multiple IO
devices (UARTs, SPI, I2C, ADC...).  It will directly support SDRAM and
provides chip selects for Flash and IO devices.  

The Spartan IIE FPGAs are ok devices, but as someone else pointed out,
they are not very low power.  They also have an issue with a power on
current surge that requires 0.5 Amps of current minimum without allowing
the voltage to drop.  And all this is during the voltage ramp up
process!  Then to top it all off, these parts are not 5 volt tolerant. 
There are still a lot of apps that need to interface to 5 volt signals.  

We picked the Altera EP1K series of FPGAs.  They are fairly low cost and
less power hungry than the Spartan IIE devices.  Their power on current
is much lower and the core voltage matches the OKI ARM chip.  


Pablo Bleyer wrote:
> 
> Hello group.
> 
> We would like you to share with us your comments and opinions about a
> product we are planning to launch. Your feedback will be very helpful to
> determine the interest in this kind of product, and important to establish
> its development path and features (including, of course, price, so by
> helping us you may be helping yourself ;^)
> 
> This is a low cost, low power little board (3"x2") we designed to use in our
> own custom control & data acquisition projects, but the concept turned out
> so nice and nifty that we are evaluating the possibility to commercialize it
> as a line product. It currently has an AT91M42800A MCU from Atmel (ARM7TDMI
> with an external bus), up to 1MB RAM, 1MB to 8MB Flash, integrated power
> supply and a Xilinx SpartanIIe FPGA (XC2S50E or XC2S100E) with a
> programmable clock oscillator. Expansion headers are provided for all
> important board signals (120, including power pins), with top and bottom
> stack mount capability.
> 
> Most MCU and FPGA pins are shared to provide a flexible interfacing
> architecture. The FPGA can be used for logic interfacing, data processing,
> video output and LCD interface, hardware UARTs and other kind of
> communications, etc.
> 
> We would like to introduce this first as a basic kit with all the necessary
> tools to get one started (core module, adapter board with serial
> transceivers, wiggler-like JTAG programmers, software). The board itself is
> a wonderful combo-kit for learning about embedded systems with the ARM
> architecture and FPGAs. Most of the software and applications will be
> provided as open source and a web site with useful information (application
> notes, code and FPGA cores) will be set up. An eCos profile for the board
> will be made available too.
> 
> We also have designs for a backplane and auto-configuring add-on modules
> with analog and digital IOs, Ethernet interface, IrDA and RF transceivers,
> CompactFlash interface, etc. Our idea is to make them available once we can
> reinvest and verify enough demand for each kind of device.
> 
> The board can be configured for 1V-3.6V input operation using an efficient
> step-up regulator,  targeted mainly for battery powered applications.
> Another configuration allows not installing the FPGA and using a cheap LDO
> regulator for cost-sensitive applications where the FPGA is not necessary
> and power efficiency is not of concern.
> 
> You can take a look at some pre-production kit items at
> http://www.embedded.cl/gallery/ARMermelator
> 
> In particular, you would help us a lot with your answers and suggestions for
> the following:
> - How much will you be willing to pay for a kit like this. How much for core
> boards in quantities?
> - Do you think the FPGA configuration (ie, FPGA present on the board) will
> be useful for you? Would you choose this board over other similar products
> because of its FPGA functionality?
> - Concerning the kit, do you think a base board with integrated programmers,
> serial transceivers and prototyping area would be more useful to you than an
> adapter board and separated programmers?
> - What kind of applications and solutions to your needs do you envision
> using a board like this?
> - Without knowing further details, your overall impression about this
> product.
> 
> Well, thank you very much in advance. Sorry for the long post and sorry if
> the content of this post sounded too much like marketing instead of
> technical matters -- we are not trying to offend anyone but to help us all.
> 
> Warmest regards.
> 
> --
> PabloBleyerKocik /
>  pbleyer        /"Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability."
>   @embedded.cl / -- Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

-- 

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

Pablo Bleyer wrote:
> Hello group.
> 
> We would like you to share with us your comments and opinions about a
> product we are planning to launch. Your feedback will be very helpful to
> determine the interest in this kind of product, and important to establish
> its development path and features (including, of course, price, so by
> helping us you may be helping yourself ;^)
> 
> This is a low cost, low power little board (3"x2") we designed to use in our
> own custom control & data acquisition projects, but the concept turned out
> so nice and nifty that we are evaluating the possibility to commercialize it
> as a line product. It currently has an AT91M42800A MCU from Atmel (ARM7TDMI
> with an external bus), up to 1MB RAM, 1MB to 8MB Flash, integrated power
> supply and a Xilinx SpartanIIe FPGA (XC2S50E or XC2S100E) with a
> programmable clock oscillator. Expansion headers are provided for all
> important board signals (120, including power pins), with top and bottom
> stack mount capability.
> 
> Most MCU and FPGA pins are shared to provide a flexible interfacing
> architecture. The FPGA can be used for logic interfacing, data processing,
> video output and LCD interface, hardware UARTs and other kind of
> communications, etc.
> 
> We would like to introduce this first as a basic kit with all the necessary
> tools to get one started (core module, adapter board with serial
> transceivers, wiggler-like JTAG programmers, software). The board itself is
> a wonderful combo-kit for learning about embedded systems with the ARM
> architecture and FPGAs. Most of the software and applications will be
> provided as open source and a web site with useful information (application
> notes, code and FPGA cores) will be set up. An eCos profile for the board
> will be made available too.
> 
> We also have designs for a backplane and auto-configuring add-on modules
> with analog and digital IOs, Ethernet interface, IrDA and RF transceivers,
> CompactFlash interface, etc. Our idea is to make them available once we can
> reinvest and verify enough demand for each kind of device.
> 
> The board can be configured for 1V-3.6V input operation using an efficient
> step-up regulator,  targeted mainly for battery powered applications.
> Another configuration allows not installing the FPGA and using a cheap LDO
> regulator for cost-sensitive applications where the FPGA is not necessary
> and power efficiency is not of concern.
> 
> You can take a look at some pre-production kit items at
> http://www.embedded.cl/gallery/ARMermelator
> 
> In particular, you would help us a lot with your answers and suggestions for
> the following:
> - How much will you be willing to pay for a kit like this. How much for core
> boards in quantities?
> - Do you think the FPGA configuration (ie, FPGA present on the board) will
> be useful for you? Would you choose this board over other similar products
> because of its FPGA functionality?
> - Concerning the kit, do you think a base board with integrated programmers,
> serial transceivers and prototyping area would be more useful to you than an
> adapter board and separated programmers?
> - What kind of applications and solutions to your needs do you envision
> using a board like this?
> - Without knowing further details, your overall impression about this
> product.
> 
> Well, thank you very much in advance. Sorry for the long post and sorry if
> the content of this post sounded too much like marketing instead of
> technical matters -- we are not trying to offend anyone but to help us all.
> 
> Warmest regards.
> 
> 
> --
> PabloBleyerKocik /
>  pbleyer        /"Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability."
>   @embedded.cl / -- Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
> 
> 
> 
> 
For the JTAG interface, just add an Multi-ICE 20-pin header. Most 
designers have Wiggler-like Dongle. Or if you need a better flash 
programming baudrate or debugging baudrate, use the Chameleon POD with 
raven_all_speeds configuration.
(note: Chameleon POD can operates as Raven, Wiggler, 
Xilinx_parallel_cable, Altera_ByteBlaster, Lattice_ispDownload, 
Atmel_AVR_stkxxx, configutation! ALL config for FREE, ALL in ONE Dongle)

Laurent
www.amontec.com

Hello Rick!

rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<402CEAA9.9D45F077@yahoo.com>...
> Hi Pablo,  
> 
> Interesting idea ;)
> 
> Our board is going to have an ARM and an FPGA tightly coupled as well. 
> But we will have a lot more of course.  
> 
> Having gone down this road before, I would recommend that you used
> different devices than the two you have picked.  I think you will find
> it is cheaper to use an ARM with internal Flash and RAM.  Of course how
> much you need depends on your application and a SOC ARM may not have
> enough.  But you can sell the board with/without the external Flash and
> RAM to make a low cost version possible.

 We picked up this AT91 for its availability in low volumes, sleep
modes (internal PLL that boosts 32kHz to 32MHz) and temperature range.
Yes, we considered and are considering other devices as well, like OKI
chips (they support external SDRAM, though these are difficult to
source in industrial temp) and the LPC22XXs. If this works out perhaps
we can offer other family siblings with the same board format and
other MCUs. Nice thing is that they are all ARMs so code reusability
and compatibility is secured.
  
> The Spartan IIE FPGAs are ok devices, but as someone else pointed out,
> they are not very low power.  They also have an issue with a power on
> current surge that requires 0.5 Amps of current minimum without allowing
> the voltage to drop.  And all this is during the voltage ramp up
> process!  

 We have measured the ramp-up current of SpartanII and IIe FPGAs and
it is really not an issue with this kind of boards (of course, the
power supply was designed considering the FPGA requirements). We have
used Xilinx FPGAs in several designs, so we are confident with the
parts and we know their features and limitations. We try very hard to
design our boards with reliability in mind and we do lots of tests in
field and harsh environments (Chilean mining industry, do I need to
say more? ;^)

 In standby (MCU at 32kHz --not in sleep--, FPGA clocks halted) the
unit takes ~60mA @ 3.3V input. When the MCU is running at 32MHz the
board typically consumes ~140mA at the same voltage. FPGA consumption
varies, but for simple apps it's below 100mA working at full MCU
clock. So a typical application always at full MCU clock can run for
~10 hours with two rechargeable NiMH AA batteries. If the board enters
sleep mode power consumption can be reduced a lot and will improve
stand-alone operation considerably.

> Then to top it all off, these parts are not 5 volt tolerant. 
> There are still a lot of apps that need to interface to 5 volt signals.

 Yep, we know that there are a lot of 5V systems out there. We
analyzed the situation and it really was cheaper to make the core
module as simple as possible, and add a couple of 25 cent 5V tolerant
transceivers to the add-on modules that use 5V parts (and where there
is more space).
  
> We picked the Altera EP1K series of FPGAs.  They are fairly low cost and
> less power hungry than the Spartan IIE devices.  Their power on current
> is much lower and the core voltage matches the OKI ARM chip.  

 Have you measured their standby current (before configuration) and
static consumption (after configuration and halted clocks)? That would
be nice figures to compare.

 Thanks for your comments. Cheers!

PabloBleyerKocik /
 pbleyer        /"Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability."
  @embedded.cl / -- Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

"Amontec Team, Laurent Gauch" wrote:
> 
> Pablo Bleyer wrote:
> > Hello group.
> >
> > We would like you to share with us your comments and opinions about a
> > product we are planning to launch. Your feedback will be very helpful to
> > determine the interest in this kind of product, and important to establish
> > its development path and features (including, of course, price, so by
> > helping us you may be helping yourself ;^)
> >
> > This is a low cost, low power little board (3"x2") we designed to use in our
> > own custom control & data acquisition projects, but the concept turned out
> > so nice and nifty that we are evaluating the possibility to commercialize it
> > as a line product. It currently has an AT91M42800A MCU from Atmel (ARM7TDMI
> > with an external bus), up to 1MB RAM, 1MB to 8MB Flash, integrated power
> > supply and a Xilinx SpartanIIe FPGA (XC2S50E or XC2S100E) with a
> > programmable clock oscillator. Expansion headers are provided for all
> > important board signals (120, including power pins), with top and bottom
> > stack mount capability.
> >
> > Most MCU and FPGA pins are shared to provide a flexible interfacing
> > architecture. The FPGA can be used for logic interfacing, data processing,
> > video output and LCD interface, hardware UARTs and other kind of
> > communications, etc.
> >
> > We would like to introduce this first as a basic kit with all the necessary
> > tools to get one started (core module, adapter board with serial
> > transceivers, wiggler-like JTAG programmers, software). The board itself is
> > a wonderful combo-kit for learning about embedded systems with the ARM
> > architecture and FPGAs. Most of the software and applications will be
> > provided as open source and a web site with useful information (application
> > notes, code and FPGA cores) will be set up. An eCos profile for the board
> > will be made available too.
> >
> > We also have designs for a backplane and auto-configuring add-on modules
> > with analog and digital IOs, Ethernet interface, IrDA and RF transceivers,
> > CompactFlash interface, etc. Our idea is to make them available once we can
> > reinvest and verify enough demand for each kind of device.
> >
> > The board can be configured for 1V-3.6V input operation using an efficient
> > step-up regulator,  targeted mainly for battery powered applications.
> > Another configuration allows not installing the FPGA and using a cheap LDO
> > regulator for cost-sensitive applications where the FPGA is not necessary
> > and power efficiency is not of concern.
> >
> > You can take a look at some pre-production kit items at
> > http://www.embedded.cl/gallery/ARMermelator
> >
> > In particular, you would help us a lot with your answers and suggestions for
> > the following:
> > - How much will you be willing to pay for a kit like this. How much for core
> > boards in quantities?
> > - Do you think the FPGA configuration (ie, FPGA present on the board) will
> > be useful for you? Would you choose this board over other similar products
> > because of its FPGA functionality?
> > - Concerning the kit, do you think a base board with integrated programmers,
> > serial transceivers and prototyping area would be more useful to you than an
> > adapter board and separated programmers?
> > - What kind of applications and solutions to your needs do you envision
> > using a board like this?
> > - Without knowing further details, your overall impression about this
> > product.
> >
> > Well, thank you very much in advance. Sorry for the long post and sorry if
> > the content of this post sounded too much like marketing instead of
> > technical matters -- we are not trying to offend anyone but to help us all.
> >
> > Warmest regards.
> >
> >
> > --
> > PabloBleyerKocik /
> >  pbleyer        /"Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability."
> >   @embedded.cl / -- Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
> >
> >
> >
> >
> For the JTAG interface, just add an Multi-ICE 20-pin header. Most
> designers have Wiggler-like Dongle. Or if you need a better flash
> programming baudrate or debugging baudrate, use the Chameleon POD with
> raven_all_speeds configuration.
> (note: Chameleon POD can operates as Raven, Wiggler,
> Xilinx_parallel_cable, Altera_ByteBlaster, Lattice_ispDownload,
> Atmel_AVR_stkxxx, configutation! ALL config for FREE, ALL in ONE Dongle)

Or you could just add the Xilinx coolrunner part that they are using on
the Chameleon pod and connect directly to the PC!  

-- 

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

Pablo Bleyer Kocik wrote:
> 
> Hello Rick!
> 
> rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<402CEAA9.9D45F077@yahoo.com>...
> > Hi Pablo,
> >
> > Interesting idea ;)
> >
> > Our board is going to have an ARM and an FPGA tightly coupled as well.
> > But we will have a lot more of course.
> >
> > Having gone down this road before, I would recommend that you used
> > different devices than the two you have picked.  I think you will find
> > it is cheaper to use an ARM with internal Flash and RAM.  Of course how
> > much you need depends on your application and a SOC ARM may not have
> > enough.  But you can sell the board with/without the external Flash and
> > RAM to make a low cost version possible.
> 
>  We picked up this AT91 for its availability in low volumes, sleep
> modes (internal PLL that boosts 32kHz to 32MHz) and temperature range.

Many of the newer ARMs are available in Industrial temps (OKI only comes
in Industrial) and some work with a 32 kHz xtal (the OKI does not).  

> Yes, we considered and are considering other devices as well, like OKI
> chips (they support external SDRAM, though these are difficult to
> source in industrial temp) and the LPC22XXs. 

Unfortunately the LPC22xx are not out yet.  Only the versions with no
external bus are available.  


> If this works out perhaps
> we can offer other family siblings with the same board format and
> other MCUs. Nice thing is that they are all ARMs so code reusability
> and compatibility is secured.
> 
> > The Spartan IIE FPGAs are ok devices, but as someone else pointed out,
> > they are not very low power.  They also have an issue with a power on
> > current surge that requires 0.5 Amps of current minimum without allowing
> > the voltage to drop.  And all this is during the voltage ramp up
> > process!
> 
>  We have measured the ramp-up current of SpartanII and IIe FPGAs and
> it is really not an issue with this kind of boards (of course, the
> power supply was designed considering the FPGA requirements). We have
> used Xilinx FPGAs in several designs, so we are confident with the
> parts and we know their features and limitations. We try very hard to
> design our boards with reliability in mind and we do lots of tests in
> field and harsh environments (Chilean mining industry, do I need to
> say more? ;^)
> 
>  In standby (MCU at 32kHz --not in sleep--, FPGA clocks halted) the
> unit takes ~60mA @ 3.3V input. When the MCU is running at 32MHz the
> board typically consumes ~140mA at the same voltage. FPGA consumption
> varies, but for simple apps it's below 100mA working at full MCU
> clock. So a typical application always at full MCU clock can run for
> ~10 hours with two rechargeable NiMH AA batteries. If the board enters
> sleep mode power consumption can be reduced a lot and will improve
> stand-alone operation considerably.

Wow!  That is a lot more than other devices can do, but I guess if it is
not an issue with your application it does not matter.  The OKI part
runs at 60 MHz with less than 60 mA @ 2.5v.  Of course the FPGA current
will depend on the app inside, but we are designing with <70 mA @ 5v
target in mind.  Our sleep current is around 5 mA which is almost all
from the FPGA.  Many of our customers run from batteries and the current
is a *major* concern.  


> > Then to top it all off, these parts are not 5 volt tolerant.
> > There are still a lot of apps that need to interface to 5 volt signals.
> 
>  Yep, we know that there are a lot of 5V systems out there. We
> analyzed the situation and it really was cheaper to make the core
> module as simple as possible, and add a couple of 25 cent 5V tolerant
> transceivers to the add-on modules that use 5V parts (and where there
> is more space).

I guess if you have picked the Xilinx parts for other reasons that would
be true.  But the power and the 5 volt tolerance is the main reason we
picked the Altera ACEX part.  This just eliminates the extra parts and
keep the power supply simple.  We are using a couple of switched
capacitor converters to keep it as efficient as possible.  


> > We picked the Altera EP1K series of FPGAs.  They are fairly low cost and
> > less power hungry than the Spartan IIE devices.  Their power on current
> > is much lower and the core voltage matches the OKI ARM chip.
> 
>  Have you measured their standby current (before configuration) and
> static consumption (after configuration and halted clocks)? That would
> be nice figures to compare.

I have not measured it, but the numbers that Altera has given me are 100
mA startup surge and 5/10 mA static current (commercial/industrial
temps).  

-- 

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

"rickman" <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> escribi&#4294967295; en el mensaje
news:402D5004.7E73D943@yahoo.com...
> "Amontec Team, Laurent Gauch" wrote:
> > For the JTAG interface, just add an Multi-ICE 20-pin header. Most
> > designers have Wiggler-like Dongle. Or if you need a better flash
> > programming baudrate or debugging baudrate, use the Chameleon POD with
> > raven_all_speeds configuration.
> > (note: Chameleon POD can operates as Raven, Wiggler,
> > Xilinx_parallel_cable, Altera_ByteBlaster, Lattice_ispDownload,
> > Atmel_AVR_stkxxx, configutation! ALL config for FREE, ALL in ONE Dongle)
>
> Or you could just add the Xilinx coolrunner part that they are using on
> the Chameleon pod and connect directly to the PC!

 Actually, we are doing something much better, but it will only see the
light once we have the necessary ROI to fund its production ;^)

 Regards.

"rickman" <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> escribi&#4294967295; en el mensaje
news:402D53AD.C0D80CBB@yahoo.com...
>
> Many of the newer ARMs are available in Industrial temps (OKI only comes
> in Industrial) and some work with a 32 kHz xtal (the OKI does not).

 Main problem is, as always, availability. There are some newer parts that
have more features than the one we are using at a similar price, but,
believe me, we laid out all the information we had on the table before we
picked up the processor.

> > Yes, we considered and are considering other devices as well, like OKI
> > chips (they support external SDRAM, though these are difficult to
> > source in industrial temp) and the LPC22XXs.
>
> Unfortunately the LPC22xx are not out yet.  Only the versions with no
> external bus are available.

 The LCP21XX are supposedly to be available, but they are very difficult to
source. Waiting for the LPC22XX was simply out of the question. Also, these
devices are too new to put them out directly into production without knowing
the exact erratas. These chips look good, though, so surely we will be
evaluating them to use them in our solutions.

> Wow!  That is a lot more than other devices can do, but I guess if it is
> not an issue with your application it does not matter.  The OKI part
> runs at 60 MHz with less than 60 mA @ 2.5v.  Of course the FPGA current
> will depend on the app inside, but we are designing with <70 mA @ 5v
> target in mind.  Our sleep current is around 5 mA which is almost all
> from the FPGA.  Many of our customers run from batteries and the current
> is a *major* concern.

 Thanks, that is a good figure to know about.

> >  Have you measured their standby current (before configuration) and
> > static consumption (after configuration and halted clocks)? That would
> > be nice figures to compare.
>
> I have not measured it, but the numbers that Altera has given me are 100
> mA startup surge and 5/10 mA static current (commercial/industrial
> temps).

 Well, so I guess in this case the datasheet reflects reality (not always
the case, with any vendor indeed).

 Regards.

--
PabloBleyerKocik / "Personally I don`t understand the motivation
 pbleyer        / to build robots in human form since humans are
  @embedded.cl / so available and inexpensive." -- Lou Boyd