[Sorry to repost, but it seems my news server screwed up again] "Garrett Mace" <g.ryan@macetech.com> wrote in message news:<874Xb.9864$_66.2611@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...> I think the FPGA does separate it from most of the pack, though it is still > not alone. The size is quite attractive, making it lean towards a powerful > minaturized mobile application. However, the FPGA is not incredibly > power-efficient; some applications might require all the flip-flops, but a > low-power CoolRunner variation might be something to consider. They are > quite inexpensive and can fit a surprising amount of logic, I have a > four-axis (8 coil) bipolar microstepping translator and driver project that > so far fits into 128. The processor itself would probably be able to handle > many of the tasks you would use all the flip-flops for, anyway. The CPLD > also won't need to be reloaded every power cycle.Yes, we considered a CPLD versus the FPGA. For some applications the CPLD fits fine, but it leaves a lot of applications out. For example, we have had applications where we need a *lot* of UARTs, you can only fit one or two UARTs in most reasonably priced CPLDs. There is also a benefit/cost relationship. Indeed, the Coolrunner XC2C128 costs only ~US$4 less than the Spartan XC2S100E, and the latter has far more resources. The FPGA itself is not as power-hungry as one might think.> I think you what need to do is identify your competitors. In this case, I > think your main competitor is the Pocket PC series of devices, which get up > to a full day's worth of battery life, have an integrated LCD controller and > LCD, standard interfaces to memory and expansion cards, and with a 200MHz > processor and 64 megabytes of RAM can be had for less than $200.It is really not a PocketPC. You cannot put a PocketPC in an industrial environment! The idea of the board is to use it for deeply embedded devices, although of course you can plug an LCD and other consumer-electronics stuff to it. We are targeting the sub-US$100 market of 8 and 16 bit module boards. The idea for the battery operation is that you use the low power modes of the processor to reach weeks of battery life.> Your device > needs to make up its shortcomings in the display, memory, and standard > interface department, by pushing the programmable device aspect and large > number of high-speed user I/O.Yes, we will make modules and FPGA cores available for this. We know that the 1MB RAM limit could scare many people out there, but for the applications we have in mind there is no need for more (really -- eCos is so configurable that it only takes the memory resources it actually needs). The CF module, for example, will add enough memory for data logging applications, that is a typical scenario where you need lots of memory (eg 512MB).> Price the device in a range where customers > won't choose instead to build their own CompactFlash interface card with a > CPLD, and end up with a more powerful system for less money. If you target > this to engineers in a production environment, you could possibly get away > with a price near $400-$500, if you have a lot of options and good support > (you've also got to compete against the popular PC104 systems, and low-power > options probably won't be a selling point). If you target to hobbyists, I > think a $175 to $250 range would be realistic though they will always buy > something cheaper if they can. Basically find a cheap ARM board and a cheap > FPGA board, and add the prices together.In fact, we are targeting hobbyist and other OEMs. We are trying to sell the core board and modules for less than US$100, and the kit in no more than US$200. Thanks again for your comments, they are very valuable. Regards.
RFC: ARM+FPGA tiny board
Started by ●February 13, 2004
Reply by ●February 13, 20042004-02-13
Reply by ●February 13, 20042004-02-13
[Sorry to repost. Seems my news server screwed up.] Hello Lewin. Thanks for replying. larwe@larwe.com (Lewin A.R.W. Edwards) wrote in message news:<608b6569.0402130650.717890c2@posting.google.com>...> Hi Pablo, > > Interesting product. Some comments: > > > We would like to introduce this first as a basic kit with all the necessary > > tools to get one started (core module, adapter board with serial > > transceivers, wiggler-like JTAG programmers, software). The board itself is > > a wonderful combo-kit for learning about embedded systems with the ARM > > IMHO, this board is a bit complicated for introductory embedded > learning purposes. And I expect it will be a bit too expensive. You'll > be competing with sub-$200 boards from Atmel and sub-$100 ARM boards > based on other ARMs. Maybe it's better marketed as a poor-man's-ASIC > :)Yep, that's a nice comparison. ;^) However, we are trying to sell the core module and other modules for less than US$100 (single quantities), and the kit for something between US$150 and US$200. The idea of the core+module is to make modules as cheap as possible (eg 2 layer PCBs instead of the 6 layer PCB the core has). This will allow people to build their own custom boards cheaply too.> > > - How much will you be willing to pay for a kit like this. How much for core > > boards in quantities? > > I would personally pay up to about $300 for the board and > documentation. I wouldn't pay extra for a parallel port wiggler, etc. > because I already have these tools. For "production", I would only be > willing to pay around half that price for a board including FPGA. I > would suggest preloading Angel or (better) RedBoot in ROM, not > including JTAG tools with the appliance, and letting people use it the > good old way with a serial cable.Wow, that's a lot more than the price we thought we could sell the boards. We are pushing our costs as low as we can. We don't have all the cost figures yet (since this will be a first full fledged production we cannot benefit from scale economies yet), but the idea is to make the price low cost. If we have success we expect prices to improve.> > > - Do you think the FPGA configuration (ie, FPGA present on the board) will > > be useful for you? Would you choose this board over other similar products > > because of its FPGA functionality? > > The FPGA isn't directly useful to me - because I don't have enough > time to use it effectively (one-man team...) But it could become > useful if I could download canned applications from you - LCD > controller being the application of primary interest!Yes, that is the whole idea of it (like you said, a poor-man's ASIC. ;^) In the future we will provide FPGA cores, auto-configurable modules and configuration tools. For now the kit will be available, and most of the software (including HDL code) will be open source.> > > - Concerning the kit, do you think a base board with integrated programmers, > > serial transceivers and prototyping area would be more useful to you than an > > adapter board and separated programmers? > > Lose the prototyping area. Bring the signals to headers. I'm not > hacking stuff onto an eval board.Thanks, that is worthful. We were into the discussion of how valuable was the prototyping area for some people. Thanks again for your comments and suggestions! Regards.
Reply by ●February 14, 20042004-02-14
> In fact, we are targeting hobbyist and other OEMs. We are trying to > sell the core board and modules for less than US$100, and the kit in > no more than US$200. > > Thanks again for your comments, they are very valuable. > > Regards.Nice looking board! How can you make a 6 layer board stuffed with memory, arm7 processor and a spartan II and sell for under $100??? I could see if you are making several hundred to thousands.... Which board house made the board? Digikey must be really juicing me on pricing... Rick
Reply by ●February 14, 20042004-02-14
Hello Rick. "Rick" <rick@skyko.com> escribi� en el mensaje news:CphXb.9460$5W3.4461@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...> > > In fact, we are targeting hobbyist and other OEMs. We are trying to > > sell the core board and modules for less than US$100, and the kit in > > no more than US$200. > > > > Thanks again for your comments, they are very valuable. > > > > Regards. > > Nice looking board! How can you make a 6 layer board stuffed with memory,arm7> processor and a spartan II and sell for under $100??? I could see if youare> making several hundred to thousands....No, we are not (yet -- but fingers are crossed. ;^) Our post was trying to analyze the demand for the product. We don't have final cost figures, but, yes, we think will be able to sell the core in single quantities around that amount.> Which board house made the board?Protos were manufactured by E-teknet (http://www.e-teknet.com/). I strongly recommend them.> Digikey must be really juicing me on > pricing...Digikey has improved its pricing a lot, but on some parts they are still pricey (specially AT91 mcus in this case). You can buy packs from, eg, Avnet (60 units) at the same price Digikey offers them at 1000 units. Regards.
Reply by ●February 15, 20042004-02-15
On 13 Feb 2004 19:19:07 -0800, pablobleyer@hotmail.com (Pablo Bleyer Kocik) wrote:>[Sorry to repost. Seems my news server screwed up.] > >Hello Lewin. Thanks for replying. > >larwe@larwe.com (Lewin A.R.W. Edwards) wrote in message news:<608b6569.0402130650.717890c2@posting.google.com>... >> Hi Pablo, >> >> Interesting product. Some comments: >>>> Lose the prototyping area. Bring the signals to headers. I'm not >> hacking stuff onto an eval board. > > Thanks, that is worthful. We were into the discussion of how valuable >was the prototyping area for some people.Another vote for headers. If one of them bears some relationship to a SODIMM socket, you could conceivably support SDRAM through a controller in the FPGA, for those who need it. Just a thought. - Brian
Reply by ●February 15, 20042004-02-15
Hello Brian. "Brian Drummond" <brian@shapes.demon.co.uk> escribi� en el mensaje news:0o9s205ugmsf0k6efk6oianhcgvqq8m9bs@4ax.com...> > Another vote for headers. > > If one of them bears some relationship to a SODIMM socket, you could > conceivably support SDRAM through a controller in the FPGA, for those > who need it. Just a thought. >All the available MCU and FPGA signals have been exported to the headers (120 pins total). The idea of dual headers is to be able to stack modules up or down and keep things compact. We have also a design for a backplane, where the core module fits in dual headers and there are AGP132 connectors for the add-on modules that also have an edge connector (these have a length of ~2.7"that fits that format). So, yes, it's possible to have a module with SDRAMs controlled by the FPGA, although this will take some pins of the headers for the SDRAM control signals. If the module has an external controller that would be better, but perhaps a cleaner choice would be to use PSRAMs. The extra 12 signals of the AGP132 connectors are used for alternative voltages (eg negative voltages for bipolar DACs), and 4 pins are used for module auto-detection. Thanks for your comments. Regards.
Reply by ●February 15, 20042004-02-15
In article <402c61d2_2@nova.entelchile.net>, Pablo Bleyer <pbleyerN@SPAMembedded.cl> wrote:>This is a low cost, low power little board (3"x2") we designed to use in our >own custom control & data acquisition projects, but the concept turned out >so nice and nifty that we are evaluating the possibility to commercialize it >as a line product. It currently has an AT91M42800A MCU from Atmel (ARM7TDMI >with an external bus), up to 1MB RAM, 1MB to 8MB Flash, integrated power >supply and a Xilinx SpartanIIe FPGA (XC2S50E or XC2S100E) with a >programmable clock oscillator. Expansion headers are provided for all >important board signals (120, including power pins), with top and bottom >stack mount capability.One thing to be aware of: Cost, and bigtime. <$200 gets a Spartan 2 150 board with SRAM and FLASH which fits into a gameboy advance. Thus the total system cost is <$300 for processor, a couple MB of memory, a couple MB of flash, ~50 header pins, a nice little display, and a battery power supply. -- Nicholas C. Weaver nweaver@cs.berkeley.edu
Reply by ●February 15, 20042004-02-15
Hello Brian. Brian Drummond <brian@shapes.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<0o9s205ugmsf0k6efk6oianhcgvqq8m9bs@4ax.com>...> > Another vote for headers. > > If one of them bears some relationship to a SODIMM socket, you could > conceivably support SDRAM through a controller in the FPGA, for those > who need it. Just a thought. >All the available MCU and FPGA signals have been exported to the headers (120 pins total). The idea of dual headers is to be able to stack modules up or down and keep things compact. We have also a design for a backplane, where the core module fits in dual headers and there are AGP132 connectors for the add-on modules that also have an edge connector (these have a length of ~2.7" that fits that format). So, yes, it's possible to have a module with SDRAMs controlled by the FPGA, although this will take some pins of the headers for the SDRAM control signals. If the module has an external controller that would be better, but perhaps a cleaner choice would be to use PSRAMs. The extra 12 signals of the AGP132 connectors are used for alternative voltages (eg negative voltages for bipolar DACs), and 4 pins are used for module auto-detection. Thanks for your comments. Regards.
Reply by ●February 16, 20042004-02-16
Brian Drummond wrote:> > On 13 Feb 2004 19:19:07 -0800, pablobleyer@hotmail.com (Pablo Bleyer > Kocik) wrote: > > >[Sorry to repost. Seems my news server screwed up.] > > > >Hello Lewin. Thanks for replying. > > > >larwe@larwe.com (Lewin A.R.W. Edwards) wrote in message news:<608b6569.0402130650.717890c2@posting.google.com>... > >> Hi Pablo, > >> > >> Interesting product. Some comments: > >> > > >> Lose the prototyping area. Bring the signals to headers. I'm not > >> hacking stuff onto an eval board. > > > > Thanks, that is worthful. We were into the discussion of how valuable > >was the prototyping area for some people. > > Another vote for headers. > > If one of them bears some relationship to a SODIMM socket, you could > conceivably support SDRAM through a controller in the FPGA, for those > who need it. Just a thought.My vote would be for both headers and a proto area. The extra square inches of board space is not very much cost. When it comes to the headers, I always make the pinout compatible with the HP logic analyzer pinout. But not many agree with me on that. I find it so much more convenient to be able to plug in the pods rather than to have to clip all those little leads on. :) If anyone is interested, I can provide the HP doc on how to do this. -- Rick "rickman" Collins rick.collins@XYarius.com Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY removed. Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com 4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
