Using 3.3V compliant FPGA for 5V PCI

Hello,

I have to design a universal PCI card according to PCI spec 2.2 with
33Mhz and 32 pins. However for several reasons I have to use a FPGA
that is not 5V but only 3.3V tolerant. Since nearly all motherboards
just offer 5V slots I have to make this card somehow 5V compliant. I
thought of using a quickswith from IDT. Is this a good idea? What are
the things I have to take care of when using this method? Are there
any other ways to make my card 5V compliant?

thanks+regards,
Nicky

"Nicky" <Miaz371240@austromail.at> wrote in message
news:c7068a2e.0402180404.71afeaa@posting.google.com...
> Hello,
>
> I have to design a universal PCI card according to PCI spec 2.2 with
> 33Mhz and 32 pins. However for several reasons I have to use a FPGA
> that is not 5V but only 3.3V tolerant. Since nearly all motherboards
> just offer 5V slots I have to make this card somehow 5V compliant. I
> thought of using a quickswith from IDT. Is this a good idea? What are
> the things I have to take care of when using this method? Are there
> any other ways to make my card 5V compliant?
>
> thanks+regards,
> Nicky

Nicky, do a google groups search on this newsgroup for some
discussions on this.

My Cyclone PCI board (details on web site) uses Quickswitches
and appears to work flawlessly.

This approach isn't actually compliant with the PCI spec which
stipulates 1 load per net, but I met the capacitance limits
and inspection shows clean transitions on the bus.

Hope this helps,

Nial

------------------------------------------------
Nial Stewart Developments Ltd
FPGA and High Speed Digital Design
www.nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk

Hi,

    I recommend you take a look at Xilinx application note 646 
(http://direct.xilinx.com/bvdocs/appnotes/xapp646.pdf).

Simon

Nicky wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I have to design a universal PCI card according to PCI spec 2.2 with
>33Mhz and 32 pins. However for several reasons I have to use a FPGA
>that is not 5V but only 3.3V tolerant. Since nearly all motherboards
>just offer 5V slots I have to make this card somehow 5V compliant. I
>thought of using a quickswith from IDT. Is this a good idea? What are
>the things I have to take care of when using this method? Are there
>any other ways to make my card 5V compliant?
>
>thanks+regards,
>Nicky
>  
>

Thank you for your answer.
In the meanwhile I already read all the threads I could find in this
newsgroup concerning this topic.

Your PCI-card is a universal card as well. In a 5V PCI slot the
Quickswithes transfer 5V to 3.3V in one direction and the other way
round in the other direction but what does the Quickswith do in a 3.3V
slot?

And I have another question. Somewhere in a newsgroup message I read
that for universal PCI cards it is necessary to store 2 different
bitfiles in an EEPROM and configure the PCI-FPGA depending on the
voltage. That is to say 3.3V needs another configuration than 5V. Is
this true? If yes, why? Anyway I can't do that since I use a Lattice
FPGA which provides an internal EEPROM and my board is not going to
have an external one additionally.

I planed to use the PCI clock and put it into a PLL in the PCI-Core
Lattice and consequently distribute the PLL-generated clock to other
devices on my PCI card. I read that on your board the PCI-Clk is also
routed to a PLL and is available for user logic. However, I read that
this is maybe not a good idea since according to the PCI-spec it is
possible that the PCI-clk is 0-33 MHz. On the other hand with an
external oscillator there are much more problems with synchonisation.
How did you tread this problems? Does the Altera Cyclone provide
intern FIFOs with 2 different clocks?

I hope you can help me again + best regards


> 
> Nicky, do a google groups search on this newsgroup for some
> discussions on this.
> 
> My Cyclone PCI board (details on web site) uses Quickswitches
> and appears to work flawlessly.
> 
> This approach isn't actually compliant with the PCI spec which
> stipulates 1 load per net, but I met the capacitance limits
> and inspection shows clean transitions on the bus.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Nial
> 
> ------------------------------------------------
> Nial Stewart Developments Ltd
> FPGA and High Speed Digital Design
> www.nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk

Nicky wrote:
> 
> Thank you for your answer.
> In the meanwhile I already read all the threads I could find in this
> newsgroup concerning this topic.
> 
> Your PCI-card is a universal card as well. In a 5V PCI slot the
> Quickswithes transfer 5V to 3.3V in one direction and the other way
> round in the other direction but what does the Quickswith do in a 3.3V
> slot?

In a 3.3 volt slot the quick switch conducts without affecting the
signal appreciably.  A 5 volt signal is limited (clipped) by the Vcc to
the switch.  The switch is not really doing a voltage translation.  It
just raises its resistance significantly when the signal voltage gets
near Vcc.  


> And I have another question. Somewhere in a newsgroup message I read
> that for universal PCI cards it is necessary to store 2 different
> bitfiles in an EEPROM and configure the PCI-FPGA depending on the
> voltage. That is to say 3.3V needs another configuration than 5V. Is
> this true? If yes, why? Anyway I can't do that since I use a Lattice
> FPGA which provides an internal EEPROM and my board is not going to
> have an external one additionally.

The difference between the two standards is not just voltage levels. 
The 3.3 volt bus *requires* internal diodes to Vcc to limit overshoot. 
On a 5 volt bus these would cause real problems since signals can swing
above 3.3 volts normally.  But if you are using the quick switches, the
FPGA will not see the voltages above 3.3 volts no mater what the bus
does.  So you can live with one FPGA load.  I am not sure how the quick
switches perform compared to the spec.  The fact that your card seems to
work in a small system does not mean you are meeting spec or that it
will work in a heavily loaded system.  

 
> I planed to use the PCI clock and put it into a PLL in the PCI-Core
> Lattice and consequently distribute the PLL-generated clock to other
> devices on my PCI card. I read that on your board the PCI-Clk is also
> routed to a PLL and is available for user logic. However, I read that
> this is maybe not a good idea since according to the PCI-spec it is
> possible that the PCI-clk is 0-33 MHz. On the other hand with an
> external oscillator there are much more problems with synchonisation.
> How did you tread this problems? Does the Altera Cyclone provide
> intern FIFOs with 2 different clocks?

I don't know if the PLL inside the FPGA will do a good job of
distributing this signal.  This will require feedback from the output
pin to align the output to the clock input.  Standard clock chips will
do a much better job of this.  

You will not find many PCI implementations that run the clock much below
33 MHz.  But you will find some that jitter it to spread the EMI across
a wider spectrum and lower the readings.  I believe this is not
extensive and is compatible with most PLLs, but you should verify this.  

-- 

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4033DC6C.E9E8F1F0@yahoo.com>...
> Nicky wrote:
> In a 3.3 volt slot the quick switch conducts without affecting the
> signal appreciably.  A 5 volt signal is limited (clipped) by the Vcc to
> the switch.  The switch is not really doing a voltage translation.  It
> just raises its resistance significantly when the signal voltage gets
> near Vcc.  
It's important to note that the Quick switch must run on 5 volts in
either case, not at Vio.  Internally the quick switch FETs need about
a volt and a half above the highest required output drive voltage.

Gabor Szakacs wrote:
> 
> rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4033DC6C.E9E8F1F0@yahoo.com>...
> > Nicky wrote:
> > In a 3.3 volt slot the quick switch conducts without affecting the
> > signal appreciably.  A 5 volt signal is limited (clipped) by the Vcc to
> > the switch.  The switch is not really doing a voltage translation.  It
> > just raises its resistance significantly when the signal voltage gets
> > near Vcc.
> It's important to note that the Quick switch must run on 5 volts in
> either case, not at Vio.  Internally the quick switch FETs need about
> a volt and a half above the highest required output drive voltage.

Actually, I think they need to run off a separate IO voltage.  I belive
there is an app note on one of the manufacturer's web sites showing that
a diode drop is useful to provide this voltage from 5.0 volts.  

-- 

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

Miaz371240@austromail.at (Nicky) wrote in message news:<c7068a2e.0402180404.71afeaa@posting.google.com>...
> Hello,
> 
> I have to design a universal PCI card according to PCI spec 2.2 with
> 33Mhz and 32 pins. However for several reasons I have to use a FPGA
> that is not 5V but only 3.3V tolerant. Since nearly all motherboards
> just offer 5V slots I have to make this card somehow 5V compliant. I
> thought of using a quickswith from IDT. Is this a good idea? What are
> the things I have to take care of when using this method? Are there
> any other ways to make my card 5V compliant?
> 
> thanks+regards,
> Nicky

Altera has published AN330: Connecting Altera 3.3-V PCI Devices to a
5-V PCI Bus. This AN describes the technique of using an IDT
Quickswitch, and also addresses devices from TI, Pericom, and
Fairchild. We have used this technique on the Stratix PCI Development
Board to implement a universal (3.3V/5.0V) board. Not strictly
compliant due to the added capacitance, but it works.

You can find the AN here:
http://www.altera.com/literature/an/an330.pdf

You can find info on the PCI Dev Kit board here:
http://www.altera.com/products/devkits/altera/kit-pci_stx.html 
This info includes details on how the QuickSwitches were wired up.

Sincerely,
Greg Steinke
gregs@altera.com
Altera Corporation

Hello,

read the solution under
http://www.infotech.tu-chemnitz.de/~knoll/vhdl_pci_bridge/

It is also 3,3 and 5V with a Spartan-IIE.

"Nicky" <Miaz371240@austromail.at> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:c7068a2e.0402180404.71afeaa@posting.google.com...
> Hello,
>
> I have to design a universal PCI card according to PCI spec 2.2 with
> 33Mhz and 32 pins. However for several reasons I have to use a FPGA
> that is not 5V but only 3.3V tolerant. Since nearly all motherboards
> just offer 5V slots I have to make this card somehow 5V compliant. I
> thought of using a quickswith from IDT. Is this a good idea? What are
> the things I have to take care of when using this method? Are there
> any other ways to make my card 5V compliant?
>
> thanks+regards,
> Nicky

Miaz371240@austromail.at (Nicky) wrote in message news:<c7068a2e.0402180404.71afeaa@posting.google.com>...
> Hello,
> 
> I have to design a universal PCI card according to PCI spec 2.2 with
> 33Mhz and 32 pins. However for several reasons I have to use a FPGA
> that is not 5V but only 3.3V tolerant. 

Specifically, which FPGA?

> I thought of using a quickswith from IDT. Is this a good idea? 

Assuming you are designing a product, get the PCI specification, and
make sure your circuitry to convert from one signaling level to the
other doesn't violate it.  I don't have it handy right now but if
you're an engineer designing a PCI card you really should have it.  If
this is for a one or two of a kind board (not a product), you can
cheat or hack as you wish.

> What are the things I have to take care of when using this method? Are 
> there any other ways to make my card 5V compliant?

Loading, trace lengths, capacitence.




> 
> thanks+regards,
> Nicky