Modify POF with new ESB (ROM) content?

Hello,
We have a design that has an embedded PIC processor that uses ESB's
for instruction and data RAM. The target is an Altera APEX 20K100 with
an EPC2 configuration PROM.

What we would like to do is download the current POF from the
configuration PROM and update the instruction ROM with an updated
version. While this would be trivial to do going through the build
system again, we aren't sure the Quartus project we have builds
exactly what is in the EPC2 (hardware-wise). We got the code and
project from the contractor who designed the firmware, but the
firmware was done before revision control was in place, and no one
knows what, exactly, got put into the revision control system.

So, can you take a POF file from an EPC2 configuration memory and
alter the ROM contents of the ESB's?

Thanks!

On 7 Apr., 23:29, radarman <jsham...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> We have a design that has an embedded PIC processor that uses ESB's
> for instruction and data RAM. The target is an Altera APEX 20K100 with
> an EPC2 configuration PROM.
>
> What we would like to do is download the current POF from the
> configuration PROM and update the instruction ROM with an updated
> version. While this would be trivial to do going through the build
> system again, we aren't sure the Quartus project we have builds
> exactly what is in the EPC2 (hardware-wise). We got the code and
> project from the contractor who designed the firmware, but the
> firmware was done before revision control was in place, and no one
> knows what, exactly, got put into the revision control system.
>
> So, can you take a POF file from an EPC2 configuration memory and
> alter the ROM contents of the ESB's?
>
> Thanks!

NO

Altera is SO UTTERLY stupid in this regard.

a DATA2MEM (elf to bit file merge) is VERY important for softcore
processors in FPGA's, and Altera kinda claims they have NIOS and
stuff, but the MOST IMPORTANT too for FPGA-soc is missing from their
toolchain!!

:(

Antti

Antti <Antti.Lukats@googlemail.com> writes:

> a DATA2MEM (elf to bit file merge) is VERY important for softcore
> processors in FPGA's, and Altera kinda claims they have NIOS and
> stuff, but the MOST IMPORTANT too for FPGA-soc is missing from their
> toolchain!!

You can get the same functionality using 

quartus_cdb --update_mif

Petter
-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

On 8 Apr., 13:22, Petter Gustad <newsmailco...@gustad.com> wrote:
> Antti <Antti.Luk...@googlemail.com> writes:
> > a DATA2MEM (elf to bit file merge) is VERY important for softcore
> > processors in FPGA's, and Altera kinda claims they have NIOS and
> > stuff, but the MOST IMPORTANT too for FPGA-soc is missing from their
> > toolchain!!
>
> You can get the same functionality using
>
> quartus_cdb --update_mif
>
> Petter
> --
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

to my knowledge YOU CAN NOT

if Quartus has generated a bit file (programming file)
then this file (without access to the project database)  CAN NOT BE
updated with new memory file, unlike it is possible with xilinx
data2mem tool

Antti

Antti <Antti.Lukats@googlemail.com> writes:

> On 8 Apr., 13:22, Petter Gustad <newsmailco...@gustad.com> wrote:
>> Antti <Antti.Luk...@googlemail.com> writes:
>> > a DATA2MEM (elf to bit file merge) is VERY important for softcore
>> > processors in FPGA's, and Altera kinda claims they have NIOS and
>> > stuff, but the MOST IMPORTANT too for FPGA-soc is missing from their
>> > toolchain!!
>>
>> You can get the same functionality using
>>
>> quartus_cdb --update_mif

> to my knowledge YOU CAN NOT
>
> if Quartus has generated a bit file (programming file)
> then this file (without access to the project database)  CAN NOT BE
> updated with new memory file, unlike it is possible with xilinx
> data2mem tool

If you have lost track of the source/project database (like the OP)
you can not. But for the functional purpose where you run make on you
NIOS software project and merge the generated mif/hex file into a new
sof file without recompiling the project you can. I would disagree
with you calling the former the most important tool for fpga-soc
design. I would say that the latter is much more important.


Petter
-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

On 8 Apr., 14:59, Petter Gustad <newsmailco...@gustad.com> wrote:
> Antti <Antti.Luk...@googlemail.com> writes:
> > On 8 Apr., 13:22, Petter Gustad <newsmailco...@gustad.com> wrote:
> >> Antti <Antti.Luk...@googlemail.com> writes:
> >> > a DATA2MEM (elf to bit file merge) is VERY important for softcore
> >> > processors in FPGA's, and Altera kinda claims they have NIOS and
> >> > stuff, but the MOST IMPORTANT too for FPGA-soc is missing from their
> >> > toolchain!!
>
> >> You can get the same functionality using
>
> >> quartus_cdb --update_mif
> > to my knowledge YOU CAN NOT
>
> > if Quartus has generated a bit file (programming file)
> > then this file (without access to the project database)  CAN NOT BE
> > updated with new memory file, unlike it is possible with xilinx
> > data2mem tool
>
> If you have lost track of the source/project database (like the OP)
> you can not. But for the functional purpose where you run make on you
> NIOS software project and merge the generated mif/hex file into a new
> sof file without recompiling the project you can. I would disagree
> with you calling the former the most important tool for fpga-soc
> design. I would say that the latter is much more important.
>
> Petter
> --
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

Petter

the all IDEA about the update is that you need 2 files

1) BIT file
2) ELF file

and nothing else.. if based on those 2 files the elf can not be
merged, then this is REALLY BAD!!!

I dont know why Altera isnt understanding that.
Xilinx is doing it for ages

Antti

Antti <Antti.Lukats@googlemail.com> writes:

> the all IDEA about the update is that you need 2 files
>
> 1) BIT file
> 2) ELF file
>
> and nothing else.. if based on those 2 files the elf can not be
> merged, then this is REALLY BAD!!!

I can build my project and after that quickly build the hex/mif and
merge it into the sof. Why do you think this is so bad? 


Petter
-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

On 8 Apr., 17:23, Petter Gustad <newsmailco...@gustad.com> wrote:
> Antti <Antti.Luk...@googlemail.com> writes:
> > the all IDEA about the update is that you need 2 files
>
> > 1) BIT file
> > 2) ELF file
>
> > and nothing else.. if based on those 2 files the elf can not be
> > merged, then this is REALLY BAD!!!
>
> I can build my project and after that quickly build the hex/mif and
> merge it into the sof. Why do you think this is so bad?
>
> Petter
> --
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

quit simple

if you want to deliver a BITFILE only and allow the client to
change the software but not the FPGA bit file itself.

this is VERY simple with Xilinx tools
and IMPOSSIBLE with Altera tools

.

How many times that needs to be explained?

there is not even need to have all tools installed for bitstream
update
only the C compiler and merge tool

Antti

Antti <Antti.Lukats@googlemail.com> writes:

> if you want to deliver a BITFILE only and allow the client to
> change the software but not the FPGA bit file itself.

The client will still need the SDK and FPGA tools from the vendor. 

Or do you look at the bit-file as a method of protecting your HDL code
from your customer?


Petter
-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

On 8 Apr., 18:52, Petter Gustad <newsmailco...@gustad.com> wrote:
> Antti <Antti.Luk...@googlemail.com> writes:
> > if you want to deliver a BITFILE only and allow the client to
> > change the software but not the FPGA bit file itself.
>
> The client will still need the SDK and FPGA tools from the vendor.
>
> Or do you look at the bit-file as a method of protecting your HDL code
> from your customer?
>
> Petter
> --
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

good god... how can it be that you dont understand...

the ELF to BIT merge is much simpler than the cdb_mif update

this is the reason why XILINX is doing it that way.
this is how ALL FPGA vendors should do it, at least all FPGA VENDORS
that offer soft-core solutions.

sure its my opinion, but I am sure i am not the only one, who would
like to see

DATA2BIT tools (aka elf to programming file merge) for other FPGAs
too, not only for Xilinx.

Antti