This is my first design using programmable logic, so apologies if this question can be found in the datasheet or timing report - I don't know quite what I'm looking for. We have a Xilinx XC9572XL (10ns) being driven by either a 12.288MHz or a 6.144MHz clock on the GCK pin. The clock has max jitter 200ps. The CPLD output is a single flip-flop using this clock, driving a 74HC04 gate (for buffering). Is there a way of determining the maximum jitter of the output from the CPLD? It's for digital audio so this info would be very useful. Many thanks, Jim
Basic jitter from a CPLD (XC7500XL)
Started by ●February 25, 2004
Reply by ●February 25, 20042004-02-25
Jim, Any question that has the word "jitter" in it is by no means simple, or even easy, so no apologies required. Any CMOS circuit must slice the input, and then send it thru the logic, and pass it back out again. Programmable logic is no different from any other CMOS device. At each rising (or falling) edge, common mode noise will change the switching threshold, and add jitter. To find out how much jitter is added, one has to measure it. Measurements of a statistical value requires many millions of cycles to be captured, and analysed. There are special software packages, and instruments that do this: Tektronix scope + jitter software package LeCroy Jitter Analyser Scopes (software built in) Agilent DCA's with jitter software packages (built in) Wavecrest For the folks who do not have the right equipment, just using infinite persistence on the scope and triggering on the 1,000th pulse (for example using time delay) will probably underestimate the peak to peak jitter by 2 or 3 times! Peak to peak jitter is all that you really need to know, yet it is really tough to actually comply with the spec for jitter measurement and determine the "differences in time of the significant instances of the signal with respect to a theoretically perfect clock..." from ITU. If you have a Tek scope, a LeCroy scope, or an Agilent scope, call the rep, and set up a jitter training session. Jitter is 'just' phase noise, and like any other noise measurement, is extremely sensitive to setup. Ground leads, scope bandwidth, signal integrity (matching) all make it worse, and mask the true jitter added if you are not careful. My rule is that I measure jitter, changing and modifying the setup and instruments until I have measured the smallest value. Until I reach the smallest value, I have no confidence that I have measured the actual jitter as if I can measure a smaller number, I still have not taken all of the other noise factors out of the measurement setup itself! Oh, and I alwasy make sure I have at least a million clock cycles, and take repeated samples of a million cycles to be sure that I have the peak values captured. Austin Jim wrote:> This is my first design using programmable logic, so apologies if this > question can be found in the datasheet or timing report - I don't know quite > what I'm looking for. > > We have a Xilinx XC9572XL (10ns) being driven by either a 12.288MHz or a > 6.144MHz clock on the GCK pin. The clock has max jitter 200ps. The CPLD > output is a single flip-flop using this clock, driving a 74HC04 gate (for > buffering). > > Is there a way of determining the maximum jitter of the output from the > CPLD? It's for digital audio so this info would be very useful. > > Many thanks, > > Jim > >
Reply by ●February 25, 20042004-02-25
"Austin Lesea" <austin@xilinx.com> wrote in message news:c1ig0l$9nl1@cliff.xsj.xilinx.com...> Jim, > > Any question that has the word "jitter" in it is by no means simple, or > even easy, so no apologies required. > > Any CMOS circuit must slice the input, and then send it thru the logic, > and pass it back out again. > > Programmable logic is no different from any other CMOS device. > > > At each rising (or falling) edge, common mode noise will change the > switching threshold, and add jitter. To find out how much jitter is > added, one has to measure it. > > Measurements of a statistical value requires many millions of cycles to > be captured, and analysed. > > There are special software packages, and instruments that do this:<snip> Many thanks, Austin, for such a detailed reply. I never appreciated there was so much to it (for my sins coming mainly from a software background). Yes I realise now that it is dependent on each rising and falling edge and so depends on a lot more than the spec of the CPLD. I do have a small Tek TDS-220 digital storage scope, but I can see I would be unlikely to acheive worthwhile results without training and/or other equipment, and a lot of time. TBH, the information is partly for our marketing; jitter on a digital audio (SPDIF) signal is a big issue to many using mid/high-end audio gear, although TBH I am not sure if some of this is snake oil... However, since our product processes and then reclocks the stream, it would be useful to know what the resultant jitter is. Thanks again Austin, Jim
Reply by ●February 25, 20042004-02-25
Jim, You are welcome. Audio is all snake oil, so I have to agree that you need to have a good story, backed up by some great data, or else the snake oil will taste all wrong.... It is amazing how sensitive the ear-brain is. Jitter on audio, delay of audio can easily be discerned. For example, if you play mp3 files on a computer, any time the song is affected by a more important interrupt (whoch may only cause a very tiny time delay of the program material) my brain screams: ARTIFACT!!!! Gallileo timed his experiments (like the dropping of objects from a building) by singing a song which had 32nd notes. He was able to measure differences in arrival times of 1/64 seconds by ear, and time intervals of about 5 to 10 seconds to an accuracy of 1/32 of a second. Not bad for just some "wetware." Austin Jim wrote:> "Austin Lesea" <austin@xilinx.com> wrote in message > news:c1ig0l$9nl1@cliff.xsj.xilinx.com... > >>Jim, >> >>Any question that has the word "jitter" in it is by no means simple, or >>even easy, so no apologies required. >> >>Any CMOS circuit must slice the input, and then send it thru the logic, >>and pass it back out again. >> >>Programmable logic is no different from any other CMOS device. >> >> >>At each rising (or falling) edge, common mode noise will change the >>switching threshold, and add jitter. To find out how much jitter is >>added, one has to measure it. >> >>Measurements of a statistical value requires many millions of cycles to >>be captured, and analysed. >> >>There are special software packages, and instruments that do this: > > <snip> > > Many thanks, Austin, for such a detailed reply. > > I never appreciated there was so much to it (for my sins coming mainly from > a software background). Yes I realise now that it is dependent on each > rising and falling edge and so depends on a lot more than the spec of the > CPLD. > > I do have a small Tek TDS-220 digital storage scope, but I can see I would > be unlikely to acheive worthwhile results without training and/or other > equipment, and a lot of time. > > TBH, the information is partly for our marketing; jitter on a digital audio > (SPDIF) signal is a big issue to many using mid/high-end audio gear, > although TBH I am not sure if some of this is snake oil... However, since > our product processes and then reclocks the stream, it would be useful to > know what the resultant jitter is. > > Thanks again Austin, > > Jim > >
Reply by ●February 25, 20042004-02-25
I suspect as long as you adhere to good design practices (proper bypassing, good clock crystal, proper power supplies and distribution), that your jitter is going to be well under what would affect audio. How much jitter is too much? Jim wrote:> "Austin Lesea" <austin@xilinx.com> wrote in message > news:c1ig0l$9nl1@cliff.xsj.xilinx.com... > > Jim, > > > > Any question that has the word "jitter" in it is by no means simple, or > > even easy, so no apologies required. > > > > Any CMOS circuit must slice the input, and then send it thru the logic, > > and pass it back out again. > > > > Programmable logic is no different from any other CMOS device. > > > > > > At each rising (or falling) edge, common mode noise will change the > > switching threshold, and add jitter. To find out how much jitter is > > added, one has to measure it. > > > > Measurements of a statistical value requires many millions of cycles to > > be captured, and analysed. > > > > There are special software packages, and instruments that do this: > <snip> > > Many thanks, Austin, for such a detailed reply. > > I never appreciated there was so much to it (for my sins coming mainly from > a software background). Yes I realise now that it is dependent on each > rising and falling edge and so depends on a lot more than the spec of the > CPLD. > > I do have a small Tek TDS-220 digital storage scope, but I can see I would > be unlikely to acheive worthwhile results without training and/or other > equipment, and a lot of time. > > TBH, the information is partly for our marketing; jitter on a digital audio > (SPDIF) signal is a big issue to many using mid/high-end audio gear, > although TBH I am not sure if some of this is snake oil... However, since > our product processes and then reclocks the stream, it would be useful to > know what the resultant jitter is. > > Thanks again Austin, > > Jim-- --Ray Andraka, P.E. President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc. 401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950 email ray@andraka.com http://www.andraka.com "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply by ●February 25, 20042004-02-25
"Austin Lesea" <austin@xilinx.com> wrote in message news:c1ik9m$72t1@cliff.xsj.xilinx.com...> Jim, > > You are welcome. > > Audio is all snake oil, so I have to agree that you need to have a good > story, backed up by some great data, or else the snake oil will taste > all wrong.... > > It is amazing how sensitive the ear-brain is. Jitter on audio, delay of > audio can easily be discerned. > > For example, if you play mp3 files on a computer, any time the song is > affected by a more important interrupt (whoch may only cause a very tiny > time delay of the program material) my brain screams: ARTIFACT!!!! > > Gallileo timed his experiments (like the dropping of objects from a > building) by singing a song which had 32nd notes. He was able to > measure differences in arrival times of 1/64 seconds by ear, and time > intervals of about 5 to 10 seconds to an accuracy of 1/32 of a second. > > Not bad for just some "wetware." > > Austin ><snip> That's a great tale, Austin! As an aside, in the UK/Europe a movie on a DVD plays at 4% over the speed it was recorded (due to the 25 frames per second playback compared with the 24 fps film rate). The audio is therefore 4% sharper, I understand. Most people (including myself) don't notice this, but for those who are tonally acute it makes the listening experience less than ideal. Jim
Reply by ●February 25, 20042004-02-25
"Ray Andraka" <ray@andraka.com> wrote in message news:403CD7E4.C2A23732@andraka.com...> I suspect as long as you adhere to good design practices (properbypassing,> good clock crystal, proper power supplies and distribution), that yourjitter> is going to be well under what would affect audio. How much jitter is too > much? ><snip> Hi Ray, Thanks for the advice. We will try to follow good design practices as you say. From what I have gleaned from the web, 300ps or so of jitter will have no effect on a SPDIF signal with a 48kHz sample rate (serial bit rate of 6.144MHz). However, there are "dejitter" boxes around that advertise 75ps or better (and sell for $$$$!) To me this sounds OTT, since I understand that the PLL in the receiver IC of the amplifier will change the jitter (for better or worse) anyway, regardless of the jitter on the incoming signal. FWIW our product is not being sold to reduce jitter but since it reclocks the data we need some understanding of its effect on the bitstream. We were hoping to quote 200ps, since that is the typical jitter from the clock we are using, and it seems to be recognised as an acceptable level for most applications. I can now see that to find out what it actual is would not be so easy. Jim
Reply by ●February 25, 20042004-02-25
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:06:30 -0000, "Jim" <jim@nospam.com> wrote:>This is my first design using programmable logic, so apologies if this >question can be found in the datasheet or timing report - I don't know quite >what I'm looking for. > >We have a Xilinx XC9572XL (10ns) being driven by either a 12.288MHz or a >6.144MHz clock on the GCK pin. The clock has max jitter 200ps. The CPLD >output is a single flip-flop using this clock, driving a 74HC04 gate (for >buffering). > >Is there a way of determining the maximum jitter of the output from the >CPLD? It's for digital audio so this info would be very useful. > >Many thanks, > >JimAs your signal moves through each stage of your design, each net and gate can contribute some jitter. I suspect that the combined jitter probably has a distribution related to the square root of the sum of the squares of the separate jitter components. The peak may be as high as the sum of the non mutually exclusive jitter components. Since you are reclocking your data on the output of the CPLD, all the stuff going on inside the CPLD is probably irrelevant, except for its noise contribution to the Tco of the final flip flop. This is because the clock has to come into the CPLD (input level sense is modified by on chip noise), has to traverse the CPLD (unknown number of rebuffering stages, each with level sense modified by the on-chip noise), and then the output flip flop has to use this clock. Clearly the jitter can be no less than the initial 200ps of your clock, but could be more. I have no supportable idea of how much "more" means. If I was a guessing dude, and rather pessimistic, maybe 200ps to 400ps of additional jitter? Jitter can be attenuated by using a PLL on the clock, but it has to be a PLL designed specifically for jitter attenuation. If your goal was to have sub 200ps final jitter, I would suggest researching a structure such as: Take the output of the CPLD and run it through a single FF outside the CPLD, such as a NL17SZ74US . Use extraordinary efforts for isolation from noise, such as sepparate local low noise LDO regulator with local bypassing for its power supply and appropriate issolation from ground noise of the rest of the system. Take your clock and pass it through a jitter attenuation PLL, with similar care with power supply and grounds. Use this (improved) clock for this external retiming flip flop. Measuring actual jitter parameters is non-trivial. There are some outrageously expensive scopes and analyzers available that are designed specifically for these types of measurements. Normal (very fast) scopes can be used, but they can contribute significantly to the measured jitter because of their inherent jitter in their trigger circuit and their horizontal time base oscillator. An alternative is to use a spectrum analyzer. With enough math, you can turn the results into jitter numbers, for some but not all jitter parameters. Good luck, Philip Philip Freidin Fliptronics
Reply by ●February 25, 20042004-02-25
"Philip Freidin" <philip@fliptronics.com> wrote in message news:10tp309nnr65be5n29ei4q30sdf7s93p84@4ax.com... <snip>> If your goal was to have sub 200ps final jitter, I would suggest > researching a structure such as: > > Take the output of the CPLD and run it through a single FF outside the > CPLD, such as a NL17SZ74US . > > Use extraordinary efforts for isolation from noise, such as sepparate > local low noise LDO regulator with local bypassing for its power supply > and appropriate issolation from ground noise of the rest of the system. > > Take your clock and pass it through a jitter attenuation PLL, with > similar care with power supply and grounds. Use this (improved) clock > for this external retiming flip flop. > > Measuring actual jitter parameters is non-trivial. There are some > outrageously expensive scopes and analyzers available that are designed > specifically for these types of measurements. Normal (very fast) scopes > can be used, but they can contribute significantly to the measured > jitter because of their inherent jitter in their trigger circuit and > their horizontal time base oscillator. An alternative is to use a > spectrum analyzer. With enough math, you can turn the results into > jitter numbers, for some but not all jitter parameters. > > Good luck, > > Philip > > > Philip Freidin > FliptronicsThank you Philip for your very thorough reply. I can see that minimizing jitter and measuring jitter are deep subjects in themselves. Your ideas seem very sensible and I would love to try out that route. TBH, I don't have the time or knowledge to pursue it as much as maybe it deserves. Since our product is not being sold to reduce jitter, I am hoping that by keeping it simple and using good design pratices the jitter will be within acceptable limits - I've just seen some audio magazine "lab" reports on various DVD players, and they seem to go up to 500ps (with an average of about 350ps). FYI our clock is the PLL in a Cirrus Logic CS8416 digital audio receiver IC, with a max jitter of 200ps. We use that as it needs to handle the various frequencies associated with digital audio. I don't know if anyone uses it to de-jitter audio signals. As long as our product does not make the jitter unacceptable we are going to probably have to go with that - it's a low price product. The prototype "sounds" fine to me(!), i.e. it sounds no different to when the product is not there. I haven't done any jitter measurements on it, and unfortunately I don't think my scope, or I, are up to it. Jim
Reply by ●February 25, 20042004-02-25
Jim wrote:> This is my first design using programmable logic, so apologies if this > question can be found in the datasheet or timing report - I don't know quite > what I'm looking for. > > We have a Xilinx XC9572XL (10ns) being driven by either a 12.288MHz or a > 6.144MHz clock on the GCK pin. The clock has max jitter 200ps. The CPLD > output is a single flip-flop using this clock, driving a 74HC04 gate (for > buffering). > > Is there a way of determining the maximum jitter of the output from the > CPLD? It's for digital audio so this info would be very useful.You can get a feel for jitter, and what matters, by doing some slew/threshold calculations. eg consider a clock signal slewing at 1Volt/ns, and apply 10mv of threshold noise ( combined effects of Vcc noise ,Gnd bounce and crosstalk ) then purely the threshold modulation gives 10ps of jitter. So, in CMOS a clean (linear) low noise power supply will help, as will short, shielded traces for Osc module -> PLD. Faster edges from the Osc module will help (if you get the choice), and keeping any async, or random content signals 'away' from the clock divider portion of the PLD. If you have a PLD+HC04, doing only /2, you could consider a HC1G79 which is a tiny logic FF, to do both jobs. With NO other signals, and very low power, as well as a tiny package, this should have the lowest possible jitter. In Audio, I believe jitter affects absolute noise floors, so you could look for that effect. At 48KHz that's ~20us, so 20ns jitter is -60dB, and 20ps jitter is -120dB (numeric ratio only) - so it's not entirely snake oil, jitter numbers well under 1ns could have a measurable (if not audible:) impact. For some real values quoted by process, see OnSemi's TND301 http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/TND301-D.PDF -jg
