I'm looking at a possible application and trying to figure the relative costs of FPGA/CPLD versus MCU. I can do it with a microcontroller, but the only MCUs with the hardware I need (TFT LCD controller) tend to come with lots of other stuff (ethernet, large flash, USB etc.) which I don't need. As it can be hard to get 'real' prices of FPGAs without talking to all the distis etc. I wonder if anyone can suggest parts to look at . Rough reqiurement is : Cheapest in 100x qtys for total solution inc. config and power supply ( from 3.3v supply), below about GBP5(US$7.5) Not BGA Readly available : ex-stock or sensible leadtimes (2 weeks) A couple of RAM blocks, around 1K byte each about 60 IOs, all 3.3v 30MHz clock Logic equivalent to around 100 CPLD macrocells Free or low cost (<$500) design software The Xilinx S3A/AN-50 is the cheapest I've found so far, but is a a bit over-specced. CPLDs seem to get expensive above 72 cells and don't tend to have RAM
cheapest FPGA?
Started by ●May 13, 2009
Reply by ●May 13, 20092009-05-13
On May 13, 1:23=A0pm, Mike Harrison <m...@whitewing.co.uk> wrote:> I'm looking at a possible application and trying to figure the relative c=osts of FPGA/CPLD versus> MCU. > I can do it with a microcontroller, but the only MCUs with the hardware I=need (TFT LCD controller)> tend to come with lots of other stuff (ethernet, large flash, USB etc.) w=hich I don't need.> > As it can be hard to get 'real' prices of FPGAs without talking to all th=e distis etc. I =A0wonder if> anyone can suggest parts to look at . > > Rough reqiurement is : > > Cheapest in 100x qtys for total solution inc. config and power supply ( f=rom 3.3v supply), below> about GBP5(US$7.5) > Not BGA > Readly available : ex-stock or sensible leadtimes (2 weeks) > A couple of RAM blocks, around 1K byte each > about 60 IOs, all 3.3v > 30MHz clock > Logic equivalent to around 100 CPLD macrocells > Free or low cost (<$500) design software > > The Xilinx S3A/AN-50 is the cheapest I've found so far, but is a a bit ov=er-specced.> CPLDs seem to get expensive above 72 cells and don't tend to have RAMthe IC you need is always the one that doesnt exist ;) S3-50AN prices do go below 4$ but not at 100x qty. in 100x qty, it proabably more than your target price 7.5 (depend how good you deal..) Xilinx disties say: leadtime 12 weeks, call for order Digikey has 4 pcs in stock if you can deal with 2 KB RAM, then lattice EC1 is 6.1$ online price available in stock, need spi flash, but it still cheap total price but here XC3S50A would be better at about same price Lattice XP3 is too expensive with online pricing.. $10, stock YES, this is the IC that needs NO Externals, no flash, no LDO, just 3.3V ! Actel A3P060, is cheap, but again 2K RAM only all the above have free tools Altera doesnt seem to have devices that come to your desired price range hm.. call lattice disti, say you would like XP3-VQ100, but your BOM limit is 7.5$ see what they say !! if price doesnt come down, place xc3s50a-vq100 order on digikey, to secure your devices before those are gone too (disties have no stock. leadt=3D12w) Antti
Reply by ●May 13, 20092009-05-13
Mike Harrison <mike@whitewing.co.uk> writes:> The Xilinx S3A/AN-50 is the cheapest I've found so far, but is a a bit over-specced. > CPLDs seem to get expensive above 72 cells and don't tend to have RAMI've used the Altera MAX-II a couple years ago and seem to remember that they were pretty cheap. Petter -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
Reply by ●May 13, 20092009-05-13
On May 13, 6:23=A0am, Mike Harrison <m...@whitewing.co.uk> wrote:> The Xilinx S3A/AN-50 is the cheapest I've found so far, but is a a bit ov=er-specced.> CPLDs seem to get expensive above 72 cells and don't tend to have RAMYou might want to take a look at the following devices: Lattice Semi - MachXO Lattice Semi - Lattice XP / XP2 Altera - Cyclone II / III Xilinx - Spartan 3A/AN Silicon Blue - iCE 65 The MachXO looks to be exactly what you are after, although I don't know what they cost. The Lattice tools come with an Synplify OEM bundled, but I don't know what they cost or if older versions are available for free. Hope that helps
Reply by ●May 13, 20092009-05-13
Reply by ●May 13, 20092009-05-13
On Wed, 13 May 2009 11:23:00 +0100 Mike Harrison <mike@whitewing.co.uk> wrote:> I'm looking at a possible application and trying to figure the > relative costs of FPGA/CPLD versus MCU. > I can do it with a microcontroller, but the only MCUs with the > hardware I need (TFT LCD controller) tend to come with lots of other > stuff (ethernet, large flash, USB etc.) which I don't need. > > As it can be hard to get 'real' prices of FPGAs without talking to > all the distis etc. I wonder if anyone can suggest parts to look at . > > Rough reqiurement is : > > Cheapest in 100x qtys for total solution inc. config and power supply > ( from 3.3v supply), below about GBP5(US$7.5) > Not BGA > Readly available : ex-stock or sensible leadtimes (2 weeks) > A couple of RAM blocks, around 1K byte each > about 60 IOs, all 3.3v > 30MHz clock > Logic equivalent to around 100 CPLD macrocells > Free or low cost (<$500) design software > > The Xilinx S3A/AN-50 is the cheapest I've found so far, but is a a > bit over-specced. CPLDs seem to get expensive above 72 cells and > don't tend to have RAM > >When I did some pricing pusharounds on the 3As, I came to the conclusion that it was cheaper to get the 3A and an external SPI flash than to get the 3AN. It also allows you more choices in the FPGA packaging. -- Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology Email address is currently out of order
Reply by ●May 13, 20092009-05-13
On May 13, 4:50=A0pm, smith...@gmail.com wrote:> On May 13, 6:23=A0am, Mike Harrison <m...@whitewing.co.uk> wrote: > > > The Xilinx S3A/AN-50 is the cheapest I've found so far, but is a a bit =over-specced.> > CPLDs seem to get expensive above 72 cells and don't tend to have RAM > > You might want to take a look at the following devices: > > Lattice Semi - MachXOdevices with embedded RAM too expensive> Lattice Semi - Lattice XP / XP2I already suggested, but even XP3-vq100 is too expensive with standard pricing> Altera - Cyclone II / IIIway too expensive for target budget> Xilinx - Spartan 3A/ANnothing in stock? AN too expensive, A, maybe> Silicon Blue - iCE 65also too expensive for the volume/target price> > The MachXO looks to be exactly what you are after, although I don't > know what they cost. =A0The Lattice tools come with an Synplify OEM > bundled, but I don't know what they cost or if older versions are > available for free. Hope that helps.
Reply by ●May 13, 20092009-05-13
On Wed, 13 May 2009 03:58:40 -0700 (PDT), "Antti.Lukats@googlemail.com" <Antti.Lukats@googlemail.com> wrote:>On May 13, 1:23�pm, Mike Harrison <m...@whitewing.co.uk> wrote: >> I'm looking at a possible application and trying to figure the relative costs of FPGA/CPLD versus >> MCU. >> I can do it with a microcontroller, but the only MCUs with the hardware I need (TFT LCD controller) >> tend to come with lots of other stuff (ethernet, large flash, USB etc.) which I don't need. >> >> As it can be hard to get 'real' prices of FPGAs without talking to all the distis etc. I �wonder if >> anyone can suggest parts to look at . >> >> Rough reqiurement is : >> >> Cheapest in 100x qtys for total solution inc. config and power supply ( from 3.3v supply), below >> about GBP5(US$7.5) >> Not BGA >> Readly available : ex-stock or sensible leadtimes (2 weeks) >> A couple of RAM blocks, around 1K byte each >> about 60 IOs, all 3.3v >> 30MHz clock >> Logic equivalent to around 100 CPLD macrocells >> Free or low cost (<$500) design software >> >> The Xilinx S3A/AN-50 is the cheapest I've found so far, but is a a bit over-specced. >> CPLDs seem to get expensive above 72 cells and don't tend to have RAM > >the IC you need is always the one that doesnt exist ;) > >S3-50AN prices do go below 4$ but not at 100x qty. >in 100x qty, it proabably more than your target price 7.5 (depend how >good you deal..) > >Xilinx disties say: leadtime 12 weeks, call for order >Digikey has 4 pcs in stock > >if you can deal with 2 KB RAM, then lattice EC1 is 6.1$ online price >available in stock, need spi flash, but it still cheap total price > >but here XC3S50A would be better at about same price > >Lattice XP3 is too expensive with online pricing.. $10, stock YES, >this is the IC that needs NO Externals, no flash, no LDO, just 3.3V ! > >Actel A3P060, is cheap, but again 2K RAM only > >all the above have free tools >Altera doesnt seem to have devices that come to your desired price >range > >hm.. call lattice disti, say you would like XP3-VQ100, but your BOM >limit is 7.5$ see what they say !! > >if price doesnt come down, place xc3s50a-vq100 order on digikey, to >secure your devices before those are gone too (disties have no stock. >leadt=12w) > >AnttiThanks for the suggestions - the Lattice EC1 looks a pretty good fit on all counts - RAM is 'only just' enough, but means I'm not paying for stuff I don't need. I even found a cheap eval board for it : http://www.msc-toolguide.com/latticeec-low-cost-evaluation-board.html
Reply by ●May 13, 20092009-05-13
On May 13, 1:45=A0pm, Mike Harrison <m...@whitewing.co.uk> wrote:> On Wed, 13 May 2009 03:58:40 -0700 (PDT), "Antti.Luk...@googlemail.com" > > > > <Antti.Luk...@googlemail.com> wrote: > >On May 13, 1:23=A0pm, Mike Harrison <m...@whitewing.co.uk> wrote: > >> I'm looking at a possible application and trying to figure the relativ=e costs of FPGA/CPLD versus> >> MCU. > >> I can do it with a microcontroller, but the only MCUs with the hardwar=e I need (TFT LCD controller)> >> tend to come with lots of other stuff (ethernet, large flash, USB etc.=) which I don't need.> > >> As it can be hard to get 'real' prices of FPGAs without talking to all=the distis etc. I =A0wonder if> >> anyone can suggest parts to look at . > > >> Rough reqiurement is : > > >> Cheapest in 100x qtys for total solution inc. config and power supply =( from 3.3v supply), below> >> about GBP5(US$7.5) > >> Not BGA > >> Readly available : ex-stock or sensible leadtimes (2 weeks) > >> A couple of RAM blocks, around 1K byte each > >> about 60 IOs, all 3.3v > >> 30MHz clock > >> Logic equivalent to around 100 CPLD macrocells > >> Free or low cost (<$500) design software > > >> The Xilinx S3A/AN-50 is the cheapest I've found so far, but is a a bit=over-specced.> >> CPLDs seem to get expensive above 72 cells and don't tend to have RAM > > >the IC you need is always the one that doesnt exist ;) > > >S3-50AN prices do go below 4$ but not at 100x qty. > >in 100x qty, it proabably more than your target price 7.5 (depend how > >good you deal..) > > >Xilinx disties say: leadtime 12 weeks, call for order > >Digikey has 4 pcs in stock > > >if you can deal with 2 KB RAM, then lattice EC1 is 6.1$ online price > >available in stock, need spi flash, but it still cheap total price > > >but here XC3S50A would be better at about same price > > >Lattice XP3 is too expensive with online pricing.. $10, stock YES, > >this is the IC that needs NO Externals, no flash, no LDO, just 3.3V ! > > >Actel A3P060, is cheap, but again 2K RAM only > > >all the above have free tools > >Altera doesnt seem to have devices that come to your desired price > >range > > >hm.. call lattice disti, say you would like XP3-VQ100, but your BOM > >limit is 7.5$ see what they say !! > > >if price doesnt come down, place xc3s50a-vq100 order on digikey, to > >secure your devices before those are gone too (disties have no stock. > >leadt=3D12w) > > >Antti > > Thanks for the suggestions - the Lattice EC1 looks a pretty good fit on a=ll counts - RAM is 'only> just' enough, but means I'm not paying for stuff I don't need. > > I even found a cheap eval board for it :http://www.msc-toolguide.com/latt=iceec-low-cost-evaluation-board.html I had to do this same search last year and I found very little that would suit my needs... in fact, I found exactly one part that really was suited to the job. The problem you will find with most parts is not actually the price of the part itself, but rather the price of the package. The FPGA vendors will attest to the fact that the pricing of these parts at the low end is mostly governed by testing which is in tern dominated by the cost of testing the I/Os. So the lower the pin count, the cheaper the part. I also has space constraints which in the end led me to the Lattice XP in the 100 pin QFP package. It is about $10 (or maybe a squeak less) at qty 100 and was the only comparable part in this price range. Remember that the XP has internal Flash and the ram parts do not. I remember that some ram based FPGA vendors would jump up and down and insist that ram was the only way to go when considering the advantages of die size and how it would impact the cost. I guess that really is not the whole picture is it? I am using the LFXP3C-3TN100C which is 3.3 volt only power with 63 or 64 I/Os, IIRC, commercial temp and the slowest speed grade. If you sweet talk you local disti or Lattice rep, I bet you can get them for $9. I am actually using contract turnkey assembly, so I don't know exactly what they are paying, but my local guy has quoted me $9.50 for preprogrammed parts. The only issue may be availability, but then I have never found *any* FPGA that they maintain significant amounts of stock at all times. Mouser sells Lattice, but the inventory is mostly at Lattice and is drop shipped. I did not find one other part that was better in any regard and I don't recall finding any others that met all these constraints... but then it was a year ago... Rick
Reply by ●May 13, 20092009-05-13
On Wed, 13 May 2009 12:36:26 -0700 (PDT), rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:>On May 13, 1:45�pm, Mike Harrison <m...@whitewing.co.uk> wrote: >> On Wed, 13 May 2009 03:58:40 -0700 (PDT), "Antti.Luk...@googlemail.com" >> >> >> >> <Antti.Luk...@googlemail.com> wrote: >> >On May 13, 1:23�pm, Mike Harrison <m...@whitewing.co.uk> wrote: >> >> I'm looking at a possible application and trying to figure the relative costs of FPGA/CPLD versus >> >> MCU. >> >> I can do it with a microcontroller, but the only MCUs with the hardware I need (TFT LCD controller) >> >> tend to come with lots of other stuff (ethernet, large flash, USB etc.) which I don't need. >> >> >> As it can be hard to get 'real' prices of FPGAs without talking to all the distis etc. I �wonder if >> >> anyone can suggest parts to look at . >> >> >> Rough reqiurement is : >> >> >> Cheapest in 100x qtys for total solution inc. config and power supply ( from 3.3v supply), below >> >> about GBP5(US$7.5) >> >> Not BGA >> >> Readly available : ex-stock or sensible leadtimes (2 weeks) >> >> A couple of RAM blocks, around 1K byte each >> >> about 60 IOs, all 3.3v >> >> 30MHz clock >> >> Logic equivalent to around 100 CPLD macrocells >> >> Free or low cost (<$500) design software >> >> >> The Xilinx S3A/AN-50 is the cheapest I've found so far, but is a a bit over-specced. >> >> CPLDs seem to get expensive above 72 cells and don't tend to have RAM >> >> >the IC you need is always the one that doesnt exist ;) >> >> >S3-50AN prices do go below 4$ but not at 100x qty. >> >in 100x qty, it proabably more than your target price 7.5 (depend how >> >good you deal..) >> >> >Xilinx disties say: leadtime 12 weeks, call for order >> >Digikey has 4 pcs in stock >> >> >if you can deal with 2 KB RAM, then lattice EC1 is 6.1$ online price >> >available in stock, need spi flash, but it still cheap total price >> >> >but here XC3S50A would be better at about same price >> >> >Lattice XP3 is too expensive with online pricing.. $10, stock YES, >> >this is the IC that needs NO Externals, no flash, no LDO, just 3.3V ! >> >> >Actel A3P060, is cheap, but again 2K RAM only >> >> >all the above have free tools >> >Altera doesnt seem to have devices that come to your desired price >> >range >> >> >hm.. call lattice disti, say you would like XP3-VQ100, but your BOM >> >limit is 7.5$ see what they say !! >> >> >if price doesnt come down, place xc3s50a-vq100 order on digikey, to >> >secure your devices before those are gone too (disties have no stock. >> >leadt=12w) >> >> >Antti >> >> Thanks for the suggestions - the Lattice EC1 looks a pretty good fit on all counts - RAM is 'only >> just' enough, but means I'm not paying for stuff I don't need. >> >> I even found a cheap eval board for it :http://www.msc-toolguide.com/latticeec-low-cost-evaluation-board.html > >I had to do this same search last year and I found very little that >would suit my needs... in fact, I found exactly one part that really >was suited to the job. The problem you will find with most parts is >not actually the price of the part itself, but rather the price of the >package. The FPGA vendors will attest to the fact that the pricing of >these parts at the low end is mostly governed by testing which is in >tern dominated by the cost of testing the I/Os. So the lower the pin >count, the cheaper the part.And nobody seems to do low pin-count FPGAs, and CPLDs seem to have a big price jump above 72 macrocells which I've never quite understood - there appears to be a gaping hole between the $2 CPLD and the $8ish FPGA.> I remember that some ram based FPGA vendors would jump up and down and >insist that ram was the only way to go when considering the advantages >of die size and how it would impact the cost. I guess that really is >not the whole picture is it?Well the pricing of S3A+SPI flash compared to S3AN seems to support this... Single-chip and single-supply are nice, but not if the additional cost is several times that of external regulator/flash!>The only issue may be availability, but then I have never found *any* >FPGA that they maintain significant amounts of stock at all times. >Mouser sells Lattice, but the inventory is mostly at Lattice and is >drop shipped.Farnell also list several Lattice devices, so availability appears to at least be better than Xilinx.
