Does ModelSim or any simulator software have a function similar to the standard function any logic analizer has?

Hi,
The standard function any logic analizer does is to set a trigger
condition and to set two numbers of sample data  before and after the
trigger condition in order to show the sample waveform window. By
doing things this way it saves a lot of memory for a logic analyzer,
because engineers are only interested in the signal wave window around
the trigger condition around which an error really happens.

Does ModelSim or any simulator software have the function similar to
the above standard function any logic analizer has?

Thank you.

Weng

On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 12:24:17 -0700 (PDT), Weng Tianxiang wrote:

>The standard function any logic analizer does is to set a trigger
>condition and to set two numbers of sample data  before and after the
>trigger condition in order to show the sample waveform window. By
>doing things this way it saves a lot of memory for a logic analyzer,
>because engineers are only interested in the signal wave window around
>the trigger condition around which an error really happens.
>
>Does ModelSim or any simulator software have the function similar to
>the above standard function any logic analizer has?

Look up the "when" command in ModelSim.  It allows you to set up
fairly complex trigger conditions (much more complex than you
could do with a logic analyzer).  When the trigger fires, you
can execute a Tcl script that will start or stop logging of
signals to the waveform dump file.

I don't think you will find the "center trigger" feature
in a simulator.  The reason for this is that file storage
space (for waveform dumps) is cheap; it's logging the data
that is expensive.  So there's no special benefit in
having a pre-trigger buffer in the way you get in a logic
analyzer, where buffering is the limited resource.
-- 
Jonathan Bromley, Consultant

DOULOS - Developing Design Know-how
VHDL * Verilog * SystemC * e * Perl * Tcl/Tk * Project Services

Doulos Ltd., 22 Market Place, Ringwood, BH24 1AW, UK
jonathan.bromley@MYCOMPANY.com
http://www.MYCOMPANY.com

The contents of this message may contain personal views which 
are not the views of Doulos Ltd., unless specifically stated.

>
> Does ModelSim or any simulator software have the function similar to
> the above standard function any logic analizer has?
>

Yes, they're called 'breakpoints'.

KJ

On Aug 29, 1:07=A0pm, Jonathan Bromley <jonathan.brom...@MYCOMPANY.com>
wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 12:24:17 -0700 (PDT), Weng Tianxiang wrote:
> >The standard function any logic analizer does is to set a trigger
> >condition and to set two numbers of sample data =A0before and after the
> >trigger condition in order to show the sample waveform window. By
> >doing things this way it saves a lot of memory for a logic analyzer,
> >because engineers are only interested in the signal wave window around
> >the trigger condition around which an error really happens.
>
> >Does ModelSim or any simulator software have the function similar to
> >the above standard function any logic analizer has?
>
> Look up the "when" command in ModelSim. =A0It allows you to set up
> fairly complex trigger conditions (much more complex than you
> could do with a logic analyzer). =A0When the trigger fires, you
> can execute a Tcl script that will start or stop logging of
> signals to the waveform dump file.
>
> I don't think you will find the "center trigger" feature
> in a simulator. =A0The reason for this is that file storage
> space (for waveform dumps) is cheap; it's logging the data
> that is expensive. =A0So there's no special benefit in
> having a pre-trigger buffer in the way you get in a logic
> analyzer, where buffering is the limited resource.
> --
> Jonathan Bromley, Consultant
>
> DOULOS - Developing Design Know-how
> VHDL * Verilog * SystemC * e * Perl * Tcl/Tk * Project Services
>
> Doulos Ltd., 22 Market Place, Ringwood, BH24 1AW, UK
> jonathan.brom...@MYCOMPANY.comhttp://www.MYCOMPANY.com
>
> The contents of this message may contain personal views which
> are not the views of Doulos Ltd., unless specifically stated.

Hi Jonathan,
I have a project continuously running more than 20 days to get an
error. In my project I have many assert statements to make sure the
design is going well. If there is an error, the design stops.

But I couldn't open the waveform window under ModelSim when starting
the simulation, the reason is very simple: any size of hard disk would
be filled up within one day simulation.

I would like the ModelSim or other simulation software to have the
following function:
It has two windows to accept two numbers to specify how many clocks
before and after the point where assert statement fails to generate
waveform window data.

For example, 10k, 200. It means the software always keeps latest 10k
clocks of waveforms and when an assert statement fails, it continue
running for another 200 clocks and saves 10k+200 clocks of waveforms.

If ModelSim has the above function, it may be called breakpoint
function.

1. Start a project as usual;
2. Open waveform window and load its *.do file;
3. Set up Breakpoint window two numbers: number of clocks to record
waveforms before the break point and number of clocks to record
waveforms after the break point;
4. Run ModelSim with waveoform window opened and *.do file loaded;
5. When you manually stop its running or the running stops because an
assert statement fails, its shows latest waveforms of specified number
of clocks.

It execution in code is very simple:
1. Run as usual without drawing waveform window;
2. Generate waveform data into a buffer zone whose size is fixed based
on the two numbers;
3. When an assert statement fails, continue run another number of
clocks; then stop drawing waveform window with all collected data.

The differences between this method and currrent waveform window
method are:
1. The size of waveform data never grow beyond the size of specified
number of clocks.
2. When stopped manually or automatically (by failed assert
statement), it show the latest wavefors of specified number of clocks.

The above behavior exactly likes the logical analyser break point
function.

The method you mention cannot resolve my problem: if you figure out an
error condition in a when command, then start dumping data, there are
two situations:
1. If waveform window is opened and *.do file was loaded, hard disk
would have been full long before the error condition is met;
2. If it starts log waveform data, it is too later, because the
critical error situation has passed.

If I have any misunderstand, please let me know.

Thank you.

Weng

"Weng Tianxiang" <wtxwtx@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:59730a19-3192-4625-97dc-491f71a5cfb9@p10g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 29, 1:07 pm, Jonathan Bromley <jonathan.brom...@MYCOMPANY.com>
wrote:
..
>Hi Jonathan,
>I have a project continuously running more than 20 days to get an
>error.

20 days in my book sounds totally unworkable, are you using an OEM version of 
Modelsim? In that case you might have hit the OEM limit and Modelsim will simply 
grind to a halt (1% of PE). If you explain what you are trying to do than you 
might get some useful suggestions on how to improve your simulation time.

>In my project I have many assert statements to make sure the
>design is going well. If there is an error, the design stops.
>
>But I couldn't open the waveform window under ModelSim when starting
>the simulation, the reason is very simple: any size of hard disk would
>be filled up within one day simulation.

You can also turn logging off (-nolog) for say the first 19 days and turn it 
back on again on day 20. You can also use the WLFSizeLimit  variable to limit 
the wlf file size (see manual/modelsim.ini).

>I would like the ModelSim or other simulation software to have the
>following function:
>It has two windows to accept two numbers to specify how many clocks
>before and after the point where assert statement fails to generate
>waveform window data.

That is a good option, log an Enhancement Request with Mentor. However, the 
WLFTimeLimit variable might be able to help you (not tried myself)

; Limit WLF file by time, as closely as possible,
; to the specified amount of simulation time. When the limit is exceeded
; the earliest times get truncated from the file.
WLFTimeLimit = {100 ms}


Hans
www.ht-lab.com

On Aug 30, 3:48=A0am, "HT-Lab" <han...@ht-lab.com> wrote:
> "Weng Tianxiang" <wtx...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:59730a19-3192-4625-97dc-491f71a5cfb9@p10g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 29, 1:07 pm, Jonathan Bromley <jonathan.brom...@MYCOMPANY.com>
> wrote:
> ..
>
> >Hi Jonathan,
> >I have a project continuously running more than 20 days to get an
> >error.
>
> 20 days in my book sounds totally unworkable, are you using an OEM versio=
n of
> Modelsim? In that case you might have hit the OEM limit and Modelsim will=
 simply
> grind to a halt (1% of PE). If you explain what you are trying to do than=
 you
> might get some useful suggestions on how to improve your simulation time.
>
> >In my project I have many assert statements to make sure the
> >design is going well. If there is an error, the design stops.
>
> >But I couldn't open the waveform window under ModelSim when starting
> >the simulation, the reason is very simple: any size of hard disk would
> >be filled up within one day simulation.
>
> You can also turn logging off (-nolog) for say the first 19 days and turn=
 it
> back on again on day 20. You can also use the WLFSizeLimit =A0variable to=
 limit
> the wlf file size (see manual/modelsim.ini).
>

The problem with that is that it's not obvious that the wlf will
contain the most recent portion of the trace.  More likely it
contains from the time it was started until it got full.  What
you need, and what the logic analyzer has, is a ring buffer that
has a fixed size (up to your disk space limit) and starts
overwriting the oldest data when it hits that size.  I don't
think ModelSim has that now.  It would seem simple enough
to add, though.  The waveform viewer already deals with
lacking portions of the log, for example when you add signals
during the simulation run, you'll see "no data" until the
simulation time that the signal was added.

> >I would like the ModelSim or other simulation software to have the
> >following function:
> >It has two windows to accept two numbers to specify how many clocks
> >before and after the point where assert statement fails to generate
> >waveform window data.
>
> That is a good option, log an Enhancement Request with Mentor. However, t=
he
> WLFTimeLimit variable might be able to help you (not tried myself)
>
> ; Limit WLF file by time, as closely as possible,
> ; to the specified amount of simulation time. When the limit is exceeded
> ; the earliest times get truncated from the file.
> WLFTimeLimit =3D {100 ms}
>
> Hanswww.ht-lab.com

On Aug 30, 12:48=A0am, "HT-Lab" <han...@ht-lab.com> wrote:
> "Weng Tianxiang" <wtx...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:59730a19-3192-4625-97dc-491f71a5cfb9@p10g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 29, 1:07 pm, Jonathan Bromley <jonathan.brom...@MYCOMPANY.com>
> wrote:
> ..
>
> >Hi Jonathan,
> >I have a project continuously running more than 20 days to get an
> >error.
>
> 20 days in my book sounds totally unworkable, are you using an OEM versio=
n of
> Modelsim? In that case you might have hit the OEM limit and Modelsim will=
 simply
> grind to a halt (1% of PE). If you explain what you are trying to do than=
 you
> might get some useful suggestions on how to improve your simulation time.
>
> >In my project I have many assert statements to make sure the
> >design is going well. If there is an error, the design stops.
>
> >But I couldn't open the waveform window under ModelSim when starting
> >the simulation, the reason is very simple: any size of hard disk would
> >be filled up within one day simulation.
>
> You can also turn logging off (-nolog) for say the first 19 days and turn=
 it
> back on again on day 20. You can also use the WLFSizeLimit =A0variable to=
 limit
> the wlf file size (see manual/modelsim.ini).
>
> >I would like the ModelSim or other simulation software to have the
> >following function:
> >It has two windows to accept two numbers to specify how many clocks
> >before and after the point where assert statement fails to generate
> >waveform window data.
>
> That is a good option, log an Enhancement Request with Mentor. However, t=
he
> WLFTimeLimit variable might be able to help you (not tried myself)
>
> ; Limit WLF file by time, as closely as possible,
> ; to the specified amount of simulation time. When the limit is exceeded
> ; the earliest times get truncated from the file.
> WLFTimeLimit =3D {100 ms}
>
> Hanswww.ht-lab.com

Hi Hans,
"; Limit WLF file by time, as closely as possible,
; to the specified amount of simulation time. When the limit is
exceeded
; the earliest times get truncated from the file.
WLFTimeLimit =3D {100 ms} "

It seems that is what I want: to limit waveform file limit and it may
overwrite oldest one and continue writing new one.

I will try the option. I will tell you back if the option is purposely
designed for that purpose.

Thank you.

Weng

On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 06:57:19 -0700 (PDT), gabor wrote:

[Hans:]
>> You can also use the WLFSizeLimit�variable to limit
>> the wlf file size (see manual/modelsim.ini).

Thanks Hans, I'd completely forgotten about that.

[Gabor:]
>The problem with that is that it's not obvious that the wlf will
>contain the most recent portion of the trace.

But that's precisely what Hans said: it's the OLDEST part
of the log that's deleted.  It works like a charm.  You
can limit the log file by time or by file size.  Just look
at modelsim.ini for details - see WLFTimeLimit or WLFSizeLimit.

>What you need, and what the logic analyzer has, is a ring buffer that
>has a fixed size (up to your disk space limit) and starts
>overwriting the oldest data when it hits that size.  I don't
>think ModelSim has that now.

See above: it does.  Combine that with "when" scriptable 
breakpoints and surely you have everything you need.
-- 
Jonathan Bromley, Consultant

DOULOS - Developing Design Know-how
VHDL * Verilog * SystemC * e * Perl * Tcl/Tk * Project Services

Doulos Ltd., 22 Market Place, Ringwood, BH24 1AW, UK
jonathan.bromley@MYCOMPANY.com
http://www.MYCOMPANY.com

The contents of this message may contain personal views which 
are not the views of Doulos Ltd., unless specifically stated.

On 30 Aug, 01:41, Weng Tianxiang <wtx...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a project continuously running more than 20 days to get an
> error. In my project I have many assert statements to make sure the
> design is going well. If there is an error, the design stops.
>
> But I couldn't open the waveform window under ModelSim when starting
> the simulation, the reason is very simple: any size of hard disk would
> be filled up within one day simulation.

I've been in almost the same situation and I have also managed to
crash
our fileserver by creating a logfile that was too large... :)

My solution was to use checkpoints in modelsim.

1. Compile all source code files with +acc so that it is possible to
add
   signals to the wave window.
2. Run simulation for 1 hour or until an error occurs.
3. If no error occured, save a checkpoint with a unique serial number,
go back to step 2
4. At this point you can load up the latest checkpoint, add all
relevant signals to your wave
   window (or signal log if you like the log-command) and rerun the
simulation

The advantage of this approach is that you don't have to spend any
computation
time to log signal changes while retaining the ability to have full
visibility
when you are actually close to an error.


Look for the checkpoint command in the Modelsim documentation for more
info.

/Andreas

ehliar@isy.liu.se wrote:


> 1. Compile all source code files with +acc so that it is possible to
>    add signals to the wave window.
> 2. Run simulation for 1 hour or until an error occurs.
> 3. If no error occured, save a checkpoint with a unique serial number,
>    go back to step 2
> 4. At this point you can load up the latest checkpoint, add all
>    relevant signals to your wave window (or signal log if you like the
>    log-command) and rerun the simulation
> 
> The advantage of this approach is that you don't have to spend any
> computation
> time to log signal changes while retaining the ability to have full
> visibility
> when you are actually close to an error.
> 
> 
> Look for the checkpoint command in the Modelsim documentation for more
> info.

A simple do-script to run the simulation while a signal ("simulate" in my
case) is true, creating numbered checkpoints every 5 ms:

    # Quit simulation after assertion failure (avoids endless loop of just
    # writing checkpoints).
    #
    onbreak {quit -f}

    # Run the simulation as long as the simulate signal is set
    #
    set n 0
    while {[examine /tc/tb/simulate]} {
      incr n
      run 5 ms
      checkpoint chkpnt_$n
    }

If an error occurs, load the checkpoint that was created before the error,
enable tracing and continue simulation.

But please do test if a generated checkpoint can be loaded and the
simulation can continue from that checkpoint.

My experience is that either loading or continuing simulation does not work
on a unsupported platform like Fedora Core 6 or 8. On a platform that is
supported (like Redhat entreprise) it does work. 

All I'm saying is: test if it works on your system before simulating for
days.

-- 
Paul Uiterlinden
www.aimvalley.nl
e-mail addres: remove the not.