I'm looking for a cheap Altera dev board with DDR RAM and an LVDS compatible connector. However, it seems like the cheapest one is the $1000 "Cyclone III FPGA Development Kit". I initially thought that the $200 "Cyclone III FPGA Starter Kit" would work since it has HSMC, but the manual states that it is only intended for CMOS signals and has no provisions for differential pairs. So does there exist a board that meets my requirements that is less than $500? I know Xilinx does (the Digilent Atlys, which has great specs), but I'd like to develop for the Cyclone 3/4 because they support DDR DIMM's while the Spartans do not. If there doesn't exist such a dev board, it seems to me like there's a huge gap in their line- up. What I want to do is make a daughtercard board for an 11-bit ADC, at 200MHz DDR. I need twelve LVDS pairs. Perhaps I could just try using the starter kit board and see if the non-differential pair routing will still work, but I don't want to just toss $200 away either.
Cheap Altera dev board with LVDS-compatible connector?
Started by ●January 7, 2011
Reply by ●January 7, 20112011-01-07
"Allan Wang" <allanvv@gmail.com> wrote in message news:b69383b3-ad53-4e2c-a9b8-03580cbf6d60@g25g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...> > So does there exist a board that meets my requirements that is less > than $500? I know Xilinx does (the Digilent Atlys, which has great > specs), but I'd like to develop for the Cyclone 3/4 because they > support DDR DIMM's while the Spartans do not. If there doesn't exist > such a dev board, it seems to me like there's a huge gap in their line- > up. >I could have sworn ("�$%^) that the Spartan series have DDR support? BICBW??
Reply by ●January 7, 20112011-01-07
On Fri, 7 Jan 2011 14:53:51 -0000, "Fredxx" <fredxx@spam.com> wrote:> >"Allan Wang" <allanvv@gmail.com> wrote in message >news:b69383b3-ad53-4e2c-a9b8-03580cbf6d60@g25g2000yqn.googlegroups.com... > >> >> So does there exist a board that meets my requirements that is less >> than $500? I know Xilinx does (the Digilent Atlys, which has great >> specs), but I'd like to develop for the Cyclone 3/4 because they >> support DDR DIMM's while the Spartans do not. If there doesn't exist >> such a dev board, it seems to me like there's a huge gap in their line- >> up. >> > >I could have sworn ("�$%^) that the Spartan series have DDR support? > >BICBW??Spartan-3 can be made to drive a DIMM, up to a certain speed. Spartan-6 on the other hands, has a dedicated DDR interface core which connects to several individual DDR2 (3) DRAM chips, but won't support a DIMM. I believe the issue is that timings are calibrated assuming individual address/ctrl lines for each chip, but they are commoned in a DIMM. It might be possible to implement the old style DDR controller in S6 and just ignore the dedicated core. I recall a hint here several months ago to "contact your friendly FAE" if you wanted to learn more about it, but there were no posted follow-ups. I can't help feeling Xilinx dropped the ball with the S6 and DDR memory. - Brian
Reply by ●January 7, 20112011-01-07
Allan The problem with doing boards with DIMM sockets is the I/O count needed is not far off 100 I/O. Cheaper end boards tend to have FPGAs with 100-300 I/O. This leads to a board with limited other features so there usually isn't a lot of logic in doing a dev board with these restrictions for most manufacturers. As soon as you go into boards based on FPGAs that have 300+ I/O they tend to based on the expensive end of Spartan/Cyclone etc or worse still based on the performance families like Virtex or Stratix. I would ask why you want to use a DDR DIMM. You could get the same performance with DDR2 or DDR3 running at faster rates but a narrower interface and that is the concept behind many of our FPGA development boards. If it's size then the DIMM does tend to win although we have some single chip DDR3 designs coming that will give 256 Mbyte and later on 512 Mbyte densities. John Adair Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Raggedstone3. The Cyclone IV GX Development Board. On Jan 7, 5:09=A0am, Allan Wang <alla...@gmail.com> wrote:> I'm looking for a cheap Altera dev board with DDR RAM and an LVDS > compatible connector. However, it seems like the cheapest one is the > $1000 "Cyclone III FPGA Development Kit". > > I initially thought that the $200 "Cyclone III FPGA Starter Kit" would > work since it has HSMC, but the manual states that it is only intended > for CMOS signals and has no provisions for differential pairs. > > So does there exist a board that meets my requirements that is less > than $500? I know Xilinx does (the Digilent Atlys, which has great > specs), but I'd like to develop for the Cyclone 3/4 because they > support DDR DIMM's while the Spartans do not. If there doesn't exist > such a dev board, it seems to me like there's a huge gap in their line- > up. > > What I want to do is make a daughtercard board for an 11-bit ADC, at > 200MHz DDR. I need twelve LVDS pairs. Perhaps I could just try using > the starter kit board and see if the non-differential pair routing > will still work, but I don't want to just toss $200 away either.
Reply by ●January 7, 20112011-01-07
Is there no demand for an inexpensive dev board with DIMM sockets for the purpose of having large memory? (say, two DIMMs for 4GB total). Does the higher initial dev cost, and higher pin count FPGA really justify these boards being at least $1500+? The 780-pin count Cyclone is around $100 and seems to have enough IO to interface with a DIMM and have plenty of pins left over. On Jan 7, 6:16=A0pm, John Adair <g...@enterpoint.co.uk> wrote:> Allan > > The problem with doing boards with DIMM sockets is the I/O count > needed is not far off 100 I/O. Cheaper end boards tend to have FPGAs > with 100-300 I/O. This leads to a board with limited other features so > there usually isn't a lot of logic in doing a dev board with these > restrictions for most manufacturers. As soon as you go into boards > based on FPGAs that have 300+ I/O they tend to based on the expensive > end of Spartan/Cyclone etc or worse still based on the performance > families like Virtex or Stratix. > > I would ask why you want to use a DDR DIMM. You could get the same > performance with DDR2 or DDR3 running at faster rates but a narrower > interface and that is the concept behind many of our FPGA development > boards. If it's size then the DIMM does tend to win although we have > some single chip DDR3 designs coming that will give 256 Mbyte and > later on 512 Mbyte densities. > > John Adair > Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Raggedstone3. The Cyclone IV GX Development > Board. > > On Jan 7, 5:09=A0am, Allan Wang <alla...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I'm looking for a cheap Altera dev board with DDR RAM and an LVDS > > compatible connector. However, it seems like the cheapest one is the > > $1000 "Cyclone III FPGA Development Kit". > > > I initially thought that the $200 "Cyclone III FPGA Starter Kit" would > > work since it has HSMC, but the manual states that it is only intended > > for CMOS signals and has no provisions for differential pairs. > > > So does there exist a board that meets my requirements that is less > > than $500? I know Xilinx does (the Digilent Atlys, which has great > > specs), but I'd like to develop for the Cyclone 3/4 because they > > support DDR DIMM's while the Spartans do not. If there doesn't exist > > such a dev board, it seems to me like there's a huge gap in their line- > > up. > > > What I want to do is make a daughtercard board for an 11-bit ADC, at > > 200MHz DDR. I need twelve LVDS pairs. Perhaps I could just try using > > the starter kit board and see if the non-differential pair routing > > will still work, but I don't want to just toss $200 away either.
Reply by ●January 8, 20112011-01-08
Allan The problem is that there is limited demand but for that exact configuration that you want so the market is very small. Typically it might cost $30K to launch even a simple board like this for a manufacturer like us. So if you only think you might sell only 100 in the product lifetime that is $300 you have to recover off every board you sell on top of the manufacture, profit, and risk costs. Suddenly you have a board that is heading to sell at $500+. Obviously if the numbers change and you think you can sell 1000 boards the launch cost per board then drops to $30 and you might have a $300-$400 sell price. Going to the $1500 boards these typically will have an even higher development cost and market will not be enormous. Typically if you think that a normal customer doing a development will only buy one or two development boards and then will either design their own based on the dev boards schematics, or even come to a company like us to produce a derived design, the overall numbers are very low. If all that we did here was development boards I doubt Enterpoint would be operating today never mind heading for another record year. In numbers our standard development boards are a tiny percentage of the boards we design and manufacture now. Aside from the narrow market a large percentage of dev boards are also designed and manufactured by distributors and they usually want to add as many of there other line products onto their boards thereby facilitating sales of those products. Boards done by Xilinx and Altera are usually a combination of features asked for by customers and internal customers (FAE and Apps guys) so these are usually not lightweight boards for that reason. We don't have these problems and it allows us to be more flexible but even then we always have to consider the market size on standard boards. As always there is the odd exception to the rule so you might find someone doing what you want if you look hard enough. John Adair Enterpoint Ltd. On Jan 7, 11:44=A0pm, Allan Wang <alla...@gmail.com> wrote:> Is there no demand for an inexpensive dev board with DIMM sockets for > the purpose of having large memory? (say, two DIMMs for 4GB total). > Does the higher initial dev cost, and higher pin count FPGA really > justify these boards being at least $1500+? > > The 780-pin count Cyclone is around $100 and seems to have enough IO > to interface with a DIMM and have plenty of pins left over. > > On Jan 7, 6:16=A0pm, John Adair <g...@enterpoint.co.uk> wrote: > > > Allan > > > The problem with doing boards with DIMM sockets is the I/O count > > needed is not far off 100 I/O. Cheaper end boards tend to have FPGAs > > with 100-300 I/O. This leads to a board with limited other features so > > there usually isn't a lot of logic in doing a dev board with these > > restrictions for most manufacturers. As soon as you go into boards > > based on FPGAs that have 300+ I/O they tend to based on the expensive > > end of Spartan/Cyclone etc or worse still based on the performance > > families like Virtex or Stratix. > > > I would ask why you want to use a DDR DIMM. You could get the same > > performance with DDR2 or DDR3 running at faster rates but a narrower > > interface and that is the concept behind many of our FPGA development > > boards. If it's size then the DIMM does tend to win although we have > > some single chip DDR3 designs coming that will give 256 Mbyte and > > later on 512 Mbyte densities. > > > John Adair > > Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Raggedstone3. The Cyclone IV GX Development > > Board. > > > On Jan 7, 5:09=A0am, Allan Wang <alla...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > I'm looking for a cheap Altera dev board with DDR RAM and an LVDS > > > compatible connector. However, it seems like the cheapest one is the > > > $1000 "Cyclone III FPGA Development Kit". > > > > I initially thought that the $200 "Cyclone III FPGA Starter Kit" woul=d> > > work since it has HSMC, but the manual states that it is only intende=d> > > for CMOS signals and has no provisions for differential pairs. > > > > So does there exist a board that meets my requirements that is less > > > than $500? I know Xilinx does (the Digilent Atlys, which has great > > > specs), but I'd like to develop for the Cyclone 3/4 because they > > > support DDR DIMM's while the Spartans do not. If there doesn't exist > > > such a dev board, it seems to me like there's a huge gap in their lin=e-> > > up. > > > > What I want to do is make a daughtercard board for an 11-bit ADC, at > > > 200MHz DDR. I need twelve LVDS pairs. Perhaps I could just try using > > > the starter kit board and see if the non-differential pair routing > > > will still work, but I don't want to just toss $200 away either.
