Designing in Altium

Hello everyone,

We have got a new project in my company. It's about a controller based in a
FPGA. For several reasons we have decided to use Actels FPGAs to implement
it. For designing the PCB we use Altium Summer 09. 

Our doubt is now if using Altium to design the FPGA too or use Libero from
Actel. We like Altium because of the synchronisation of pins and the
possible integration in the PCB simulations, in addition it looks better as
Libero to print planes, and in reality it makes use of the vendor tools
(Synplify and Designer) in batch mode. In addition it allows easier
portability to another devices. The problem is that we have found massive
problems to compile some projects that made use of some special features of
the FPGA, for example the integrated ADC. The program crashes when
compiling or even when executing usual tasks. In addition there are some
error in the libraries for our FPGA, ports names for example (it is fixed
very easy). Simulations (post-synthesis, post-layout) are also easier with
Libero.

In Altium they have told us that in next version (AD10) the demo project
that we have sent them doesn't make the program crash but we haven't test
the synthesis, P&R... This version will be released next week when they fix
some problem they are having.

I would like to know your opinion about this. Do you have any experience
with Altium? Would you use a non-vendor tool to design your FPGA? We think
that maybe Altium looks very good (the idea, the results...) but maybe it
isn't reliable enough to handle our big project.

Thanks for your att, best regards,

Miguel Cholbi

	   
					
---------------------------------------		
Posted through http://www.FPGARelated.com

> I would like to know your opinion about this. Do you have any experience
> with Altium? Would you use a non-vendor tool to design your FPGA? We think
> that maybe Altium looks very good (the idea, the results...) but maybe it
> isn't reliable enough to handle our big project.

Miguel,

I'm an Altium user but that is exclusively for PCB design.

I learned FPGA design in a large teleco co and have contracted since in another
large telco, both of which had strict guidelines for FPGA development and
both of which I consider did it 'right'. Altium doesn't fit into either
of their (very similar) design flows.

I also can't understand the 'efficiency' of inteposing another tool between
myself and the vendor tools. For a design of any complexity or speed at all
you're going to have to learn to drive the vendor tools and trying to do this
via a 3rd party just doesn't make sense.

There's been some discussion on the Altium forums about this, it seems to
help some people (beginners?) but many are sceptical about the approach.




Nial.

On 9 Feb., 16:46, "mcholbi" <miguel.cholbicollados@n_o_s_p_a_m.aes-
aero.com> wrote:
> Our doubt is now if using Altium to design the FPGA too or use Libero from
> Actel. We like Altium because of the synchronisation of pins and the
> possible integration in the PCB simulations, in addition it looks better as
> Libero to print planes, and in reality it makes use of the vendor tools
> (Synplify and Designer) in batch mode. In addition it allows easier
> portability to another devices. The problem is that we have found massive
> problems to compile some projects that made use of some special features of
> the FPGA, for example the integrated ADC. The program crashes when
> compiling or even when executing usual tasks. In addition there are some
> error in the libraries for our FPGA, ports names for example (it is fixed
> very easy). Simulations (post-synthesis, post-layout) are also easier with
> Libero.

Libero is in fact just a framework that allows you to controll the
underlying tools. You could as well use all these tools stand-alone
without using libero or any similar above. Especially simulation can
be handled quite good as Libero uses only Modelsim which is a well
known stand alone simulator.
I have no clue what Altium allows you to do or not to do. But in
corner cases you need at least be able to use the Actel Designer in
GUI mode (in my opinion) because you can't do everything in batchmode
that can be done with Designer.

The question is why using Altium when you want to avoid using Libero?
What is provided by Altium that you miss and can't have when using the
individual tools stand alone if Altium is only referring to designer
in batch mode?

bye Thomas

> We have got a new project in my company. It's about a controller based in 
> a
> FPGA. For several reasons we have decided to use Actels FPGAs to implement
> it. For designing the PCB we use Altium Summer 09.

...

> I would like to know your opinion about this. Do you have any experience
> with Altium? Would you use a non-vendor tool to design your FPGA? We think
> that maybe Altium looks very good (the idea, the results...) but maybe it
> isn't reliable enough to handle our big project.

Here's a data point for ya:

We have Altium at my work place.  I evaluated it for FPGA design using a 
Nanoboard Cyclone III.  I love the idea of the top to bottom integrated 
design flow.  They have some good ideas in FPGA and embedded SW design flow 
which is where I spent all my effort.  Unfortunately the constant crashing 
made me decide to not use it for a real FPGA project that was soon to 
follow.  I needed more reliability.  Since then (about 2 years) I've been 
using Altera Quartus.  I can't remember a single crash or hangup in Quartus. 
I don't regret my decision.

I used Altium Designer over three revs during which time the crashing was 
never eliminated nor reduced.  I personally wouldn't trust them when they 
say that the next version won't crash.

JJS

"Nial Stewart" <nial*REMOVE_THIS*@nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk>
wrote:

>> I would like to know your opinion about this. Do you have any experience
>> with Altium? Would you use a non-vendor tool to design your FPGA? We think
>> that maybe Altium looks very good (the idea, the results...) but maybe it
>> isn't reliable enough to handle our big project.
>
>Miguel,
>
>I'm an Altium user but that is exclusively for PCB design.
>
>I learned FPGA design in a large teleco co and have contracted since in another
>large telco, both of which had strict guidelines for FPGA development and
>both of which I consider did it 'right'. Altium doesn't fit into either
>of their (very similar) design flows.
>
>I also can't understand the 'efficiency' of inteposing another tool between
>myself and the vendor tools. For a design of any complexity or speed at all
>you're going to have to learn to drive the vendor tools and trying to do this
>via a 3rd party just doesn't make sense.

I don't know about the quality of current Altium versions (I used it
for one or two projects a long time ago and I hated it). The problem
with most vendor tools is that the IDE is not their core business so
investments in getting it right are minimal. 

When developing software I like to use Eclipse because it offers a
uniform user interface and workflow regardless of the (target)
platform.

-- 
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 9, 12:05=A0pm, "John Speth" <johnsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > We have got a new project in my company. It's about a controller based =
in
> > a
> > FPGA. For several reasons we have decided to use Actels FPGAs to implem=
ent
> > it. For designing the PCB we use Altium Summer 09.
>
> ...
>
> > I would like to know your opinion about this. Do you have any experienc=
e
> > with Altium? Would you use a non-vendor tool to design your FPGA? We th=
ink
> > that maybe Altium looks very good (the idea, the results...) but maybe =
it
> > isn't reliable enough to handle our big project.
>
> Here's a data point for ya:
>
> We have Altium at my work place. =A0I evaluated it for FPGA design using =
a
> Nanoboard Cyclone III. =A0I love the idea of the top to bottom integrated
> design flow. =A0They have some good ideas in FPGA and embedded SW design =
flow
> which is where I spent all my effort. =A0Unfortunately the constant crash=
ing
> made me decide to not use it for a real FPGA project that was soon to
> follow. =A0I needed more reliability. =A0Since then (about 2 years) I've =
been
> using Altera Quartus. =A0I can't remember a single crash or hangup in Qua=
rtus.
> I don't regret my decision.
>
> I used Altium Designer over three revs during which time the crashing was
> never eliminated nor reduced. =A0I personally wouldn't trust them when th=
ey
> say that the next version won't crash.
>
> JJS

This reminds me of my first experience with and HDL.  I was starting a
new job and they had just bought a new CAD system that supported
schematic FPGA design.  I went to their week long training class and
the last day they taught VHDL.  I was impressed with what I learned
and decided to use VHDL for the project I was starting... at least it
sounded like a good idea.

As I worked on the project I found it hard to understand or even
figure out what logic was being produced from my code.  Support was
pretty abysmal so I didn't get much relief.  I was told silly things
like the names of my signals had no correspondence with the nets in
the synthesized design so I shouldn't expect to understand what signal
names to look at for debug.  The problems grew worse as the project
proceeded with the tool crashing a lot and just not synthesizing
properly.  Work moved along at a snails pace until a month later I
threw in the towel and said we would have to switch to the Xilinx
tools or the project would never get done in time.

After that the project moved along and I actually was able to complete
it on schedule.  One of the support incidents I had was to call in at
9 AM and not answered for 20 minutes.  I thought support was busy and
so not picking up.  On answering the person let it slip that they
simply had not bothered to answer the phones for that whole time and
couldn't believe I had stayed on the line waiting all that time!  It
was within the year that Orcad dropped their synthesis product and
started selling a third party product.

I thought it was interesting that their product and their support was
so bad that the product had to be scrapped.  That alone is a pretty
significant statement.  Not that I'm drawing a parallel with Altium.
I was just reminded of one of the engineering stories I remember.

Rick

On Feb 9, 3:46=A0pm, "mcholbi" <miguel.cholbicollados@n_o_s_p_a_m.aes-
aero.com> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> We have got a new project in my company. It's about a controller based in=
 a
> FPGA. For several reasons we have decided to use Actels FPGAs to implemen=
t
> it. For designing the PCB we use Altium Summer 09.
>
> Our doubt is now if using Altium to design the FPGA too or use Libero fro=
m
> Actel. We like Altium because of the synchronisation of pins and the
> possible integration in the PCB simulations, in addition it looks better =
as
> Libero to print planes, and in reality it makes use of the vendor tools
> (Synplify and Designer) in batch mode. In addition it allows easier
> portability to another devices. The problem is that we have found massive
> problems to compile some projects that made use of some special features =
of
> the FPGA, for example the integrated ADC. The program crashes when
> compiling or even when executing usual tasks. In addition there are some
> error in the libraries for our FPGA, ports names for example (it is fixed
> very easy). Simulations (post-synthesis, post-layout) are also easier wit=
h
> Libero.
>
> In Altium they have told us that in next version (AD10) the demo project
> that we have sent them doesn't make the program crash but we haven't test
> the synthesis, P&R... This version will be released next week when they f=
ix
> some problem they are having.
>
> I would like to know your opinion about this. Do you have any experience
> with Altium? Would you use a non-vendor tool to design your FPGA? We thin=
k
> that maybe Altium looks very good (the idea, the results...) but maybe it
> isn't reliable enough to handle our big project.
>
> Thanks for your att, best regards,
>
> Miguel Cholbi
>
> --------------------------------------- =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0
> Posted throughhttp://www.FPGARelated.com

FWIW, Altium hasn't made a profit for the last few years, despite
slashing their prices last year.

I have used Altium for a few years for pcb design and find it very good.
They seem to release updates quite regularly with bug fixes and new
components. I havent used it for fpga design as I use HDL Designer so can't
comment on what it is like for that. Not sure it should matter what profit
the company has made to how good the product is. There are a lot of very
big companies with rubbish products.

Jon	   
					
---------------------------------------		
Posted through http://www.FPGARelated.com

On Feb 10, 11:14=A0am, "maxascent"
<maxascent@n_o_s_p_a_m.n_o_s_p_a_m.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Not sure it should matter what profit
> the company has made to how good the product is.

Companies that don't make a profit over the long term go out of
business.

KJ

On Feb 9, 8:46=A0am, "mcholbi" <miguel.cholbicollados@n_o_s_p_a_m.aes-
aero.com> wrote:

> I would like to know your opinion about this. Do you have any experience
> with Altium? Would you use a non-vendor tool to design your FPGA? We thin=
k
> that maybe Altium looks very good (the idea, the results...) but maybe it
> isn't reliable enough to handle our big project.

Use Altium for schematic capture and PCB layout. That is what the tool
is meant to use.

Use Libero and Synplify for the FPGA synthesis and implementation.
That is what those tools are meant to do.

We use Altium Designer for PCB layout and schematics and it's great
for that. Its VHDL simulator is crap and chokes on some basic
constructs (or at least it did when I tested it last year). Its
project management structure gets in the way of proper source-code
control for FPGA designs, where one would prefer to keep synthesizable
sources separate from test benches, synthesis/fitter project files,
etc.

We never saw the point of wasting a PCB layout license so we could do
FPGA synthesis or simulation. Apparently, we were not alone, because
Altium slashed the price of the tool from well over $13K per seat to
about $3500 per seat. They kept touting the whole notion of
"integrated design environment" which did not reflect the way that
real companies work (dedicated layout person who never touches FPGA
synthesis/simulation or 8051 firmware) and nobody was buying it.

-a