Xilinx or Altera

Hopefully not sparking any religious wars here, but hoping for some
advice from those-who-know :)

I switched to using Altera's software a couple of years ago, because
it felt more intuitive to me - probably a personal thing, but it just
grocked better; however, I was browsing the xilinx site just recently,
idly wondering if the -7 series that I'd heard so much about had
actually arrived yet (big surprise, it's still vapour-ware to the
likes of me), and I saw the SP605 evaluation kit had dropped to $695.

This seems to be a really great deal. You get a nice high-bandwidth-
memory card, with a PCI-e interface, and high-speed external
connections (ok, only 68/34 pins, but still), as well as a full (even
if device-locked) ISE license for both the EDK and ISE. My innate
cynicism asks "what's the catch ?"

So, I thought I'd access the wisdom of crowds ([grin] on the first
pass, that read: wisdom of crows :) and ask:

 - Do you actually get a real, useful, not time-limited or anything
like that PCIe core ?
 - Ditto for the DDR memory core ?
 - Ditto for the Microblaze core ?
 - Does "lite" mean the ethernet-lite core "only' does 10/100 rather
than 10/100/1000 ?

It seems to suggest in the docs that the answers to the above are
{yes, yes, yes, yes}, but that seems too good to be true. Over in
Altera-land I'd be paying $500 for the nios2 license, and $1000 for
the memory/ethernet cores, both on top of a board-cost... I'm halfway
through a project that uses a nios2 qsys-based system, and for the ~
$1000 difference, I'm happy to port it back to Xilinx (this is a
hobby, the cost/benefit analysis is different to most people's on here
- y'all don't have the 'WAF' (wife-approval factor) to consider, and
WAF trumps pretty much all :)

I understand that if I ever wanted to target something other than an
LX45T I'd have to re-purchase the software. Does that apply to the EDK
as well as ISE ? Or could I use the EDK that comes with the kit in
tandem with WebPack to target a smaller device ?

Cheers

Simon

Simon wrote:
> Hopefully not sparking any religious wars here, but hoping for some
> advice from those-who-know :)
> 
> I switched to using Altera's software a couple of years ago, because
> it felt more intuitive to me - probably a personal thing, but it just
> grocked better; however, I was browsing the xilinx site just recently,
> idly wondering if the -7 series that I'd heard so much about had
> actually arrived yet (big surprise, it's still vapour-ware to the
> likes of me), and I saw the SP605 evaluation kit had dropped to $695.
> 
> This seems to be a really great deal. You get a nice high-bandwidth-
> memory card, with a PCI-e interface, and high-speed external
> connections (ok, only 68/34 pins, but still), as well as a full (even
> if device-locked) ISE license for both the EDK and ISE. My innate
> cynicism asks "what's the catch ?"
> 
> So, I thought I'd access the wisdom of crowds ([grin] on the first
> pass, that read: wisdom of crows :) and ask:
> 
>  - Do you actually get a real, useful, not time-limited or anything
> like that PCIe core ?
>  - Ditto for the DDR memory core ?
>  - Ditto for the Microblaze core ?
>  - Does "lite" mean the ethernet-lite core "only' does 10/100 rather
> than 10/100/1000 ?
> 
> It seems to suggest in the docs that the answers to the above are
> {yes, yes, yes, yes}, but that seems too good to be true. Over in
> Altera-land I'd be paying $500 for the nios2 license, and $1000 for
> the memory/ethernet cores, both on top of a board-cost... I'm halfway
> through a project that uses a nios2 qsys-based system, and for the ~
> $1000 difference, I'm happy to port it back to Xilinx (this is a
> hobby, the cost/benefit analysis is different to most people's on here
> - y'all don't have the 'WAF' (wife-approval factor) to consider, and
> WAF trumps pretty much all :)
> 
> I understand that if I ever wanted to target something other than an
> LX45T I'd have to re-purchase the software. Does that apply to the EDK
> as well as ISE ? Or could I use the EDK that comes with the kit in
> tandem with WebPack to target a smaller device ?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Simon

Xilinx has a new approach to supplying software with demo boards.  Read
the fine print with your board, but generally what you get is a license
to use the full EDK (Microblaze development software), which is 
otherwise quite expensive.  This license is good for one computer
(node-locked) *and* also locked to the particular Xilinx device on your
demo board.

There's nothing to stop you from using it on your own hardware, provided
you choose the same chip.  Any other cores provided are also licensed
for use on that particular chip.  I'm not familiar enough with Spartan
6 to know if you would normally pay for the PCIe license, but on the
Virtex 5 parts that have a built-in PCIe endpoint block the "wrapper"
core is free.  Ditto for the ethernet MAC block wrappers.  The Ethernet
TriMode soft MAC is not free.

For very simple MicroBlaze-based designs there is a "simple MicroBlaze"
pre-built core available at no charge, with very limited connectivity.
You can use this wih the SDK without the need for the EDK.  However
as soon as you want to build a processor with external memory and/or
network connectivity you need to pony up for the EDK.

As far as I know, all of the Xilinx licenses are not time limited for
use, but do have a time limit for maintenance (includes upgrades to
the latest version - not always a blessing).  The renewal fee for
maintenance is almost the same as a new license.  You also get
webcase support while under maintenance.  After that you're back to
trolling forums with the students.

-- Gabor

Hi,

On 06/16/11 11:38 PM, Gabor wrote:
> Simon wrote:
>> Hopefully not sparking any religious wars here, but hoping for some
>> advice from those-who-know :)
>>
>> I switched to using Altera's software a couple of years ago, because
>> it felt more intuitive to me - probably a personal thing, but it just
>> grocked better; however, I was browsing the xilinx site just recently,
>> idly wondering if the -7 series that I'd heard so much about had
>> actually arrived yet (big surprise, it's still vapour-ware to the
>> likes of me), and I saw the SP605 evaluation kit had dropped to $695.
>>
>> This seems to be a really great deal. You get a nice high-bandwidth-
>> memory card, with a PCI-e interface, and high-speed external
>> connections (ok, only 68/34 pins, but still), as well as a full (even
>> if device-locked) ISE license for both the EDK and ISE. My innate
>> cynicism asks "what's the catch ?"
>>
>> So, I thought I'd access the wisdom of crowds ([grin] on the first
>> pass, that read: wisdom of crows :) and ask:
>>
>> - Do you actually get a real, useful, not time-limited or anything
>> like that PCIe core ?
>> - Ditto for the DDR memory core ?
>> - Ditto for the Microblaze core ?
>> - Does "lite" mean the ethernet-lite core "only' does 10/100 rather
>> than 10/100/1000 ?
>>
>> It seems to suggest in the docs that the answers to the above are
>> {yes, yes, yes, yes}, but that seems too good to be true. Over in
>> Altera-land I'd be paying $500 for the nios2 license, and $1000 for
>> the memory/ethernet cores, both on top of a board-cost... I'm halfway
>> through a project that uses a nios2 qsys-based system, and for the ~
>> $1000 difference, I'm happy to port it back to Xilinx (this is a
>> hobby, the cost/benefit analysis is different to most people's on here
>> - y'all don't have the 'WAF' (wife-approval factor) to consider, and
>> WAF trumps pretty much all :)
>>
>> I understand that if I ever wanted to target something other than an
>> LX45T I'd have to re-purchase the software. Does that apply to the EDK
>> as well as ISE ? Or could I use the EDK that comes with the kit in
>> tandem with WebPack to target a smaller device ?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Simon
>
> Xilinx has a new approach to supplying software with demo boards. Read
> the fine print with your board, but generally what you get is a license
> to use the full EDK (Microblaze development software), which is
> otherwise quite expensive. This license is good for one computer
> (node-locked) *and* also locked to the particular Xilinx device on your
> demo board.
>
> There's nothing to stop you from using it on your own hardware, provided
> you choose the same chip. Any other cores provided are also licensed
> for use on that particular chip. I'm not familiar enough with Spartan
> 6 to know if you would normally pay for the PCIe license, but on the
> Virtex 5 parts that have a built-in PCIe endpoint block the "wrapper"
> core is free. Ditto for the ethernet MAC block wrappers. The Ethernet
> TriMode soft MAC is not free.
>
> For very simple MicroBlaze-based designs there is a "simple MicroBlaze"
> pre-built core available at no charge, with very limited connectivity.
> You can use this wih the SDK without the need for the EDK. However
> as soon as you want to build a processor with external memory and/or
> network connectivity you need to pony up for the EDK.
>
> As far as I know, all of the Xilinx licenses are not time limited for
> use, but do have a time limit for maintenance (includes upgrades to
> the latest version - not always a blessing). The renewal fee for
> maintenance is almost the same as a new license. You also get
> webcase support while under maintenance. After that you're back to
> trolling forums with the students.
>
> -- Gabor

I have not check this up now but IIRC, Xilinx license is for new designs 
for one year but after one year you need to purchase a new license for 
new designs but you can maintain
old designs for a unlimited time.

On Jun 16, 2:38=A0pm, Gabor <ga...@szakacs.invalid> wrote:
> Simon wrote:
> > Hopefully not sparking any religious wars here, but hoping for some
> > advice from those-who-know :)
>
> > I switched to using Altera's software a couple of years ago, because
> > it felt more intuitive to me - probably a personal thing, but it just
> > grocked better; however, I was browsing the xilinx site just recently,
> > idly wondering if the -7 series that I'd heard so much about had
> > actually arrived yet (big surprise, it's still vapour-ware to the
> > likes of me), and I saw the SP605 evaluation kit had dropped to $695.
>
> > This seems to be a really great deal. You get a nice high-bandwidth-
> > memory card, with a PCI-e interface, and high-speed external
> > connections (ok, only 68/34 pins, but still), as well as a full (even
> > if device-locked) ISE license for both the EDK and ISE. My innate
> > cynicism asks "what's the catch ?"
>
> > So, I thought I'd access the wisdom of crowds ([grin] on the first
> > pass, that read: wisdom of crows :) and ask:
>
> > =A0- Do you actually get a real, useful, not time-limited or anything
> > like that PCIe core ?
> > =A0- Ditto for the DDR memory core ?
> > =A0- Ditto for the Microblaze core ?
> > =A0- Does "lite" mean the ethernet-lite core "only' does 10/100 rather
> > than 10/100/1000 ?
>
> > It seems to suggest in the docs that the answers to the above are
> > {yes, yes, yes, yes}, but that seems too good to be true. Over in
> > Altera-land I'd be paying $500 for the nios2 license, and $1000 for
> > the memory/ethernet cores, both on top of a board-cost... I'm halfway
> > through a project that uses a nios2 qsys-based system, and for the ~
> > $1000 difference, I'm happy to port it back to Xilinx (this is a
> > hobby, the cost/benefit analysis is different to most people's on here
> > - y'all don't have the 'WAF' (wife-approval factor) to consider, and
> > WAF trumps pretty much all :)
>
> > I understand that if I ever wanted to target something other than an
> > LX45T I'd have to re-purchase the software. Does that apply to the EDK
> > as well as ISE ? Or could I use the EDK that comes with the kit in
> > tandem with WebPack to target a smaller device ?
>
> > Cheers
>
> > Simon
>
> Xilinx has a new approach to supplying software with demo boards. =A0Read
> the fine print with your board, but generally what you get is a license
> to use the full EDK (Microblaze development software), which is
> otherwise quite expensive. =A0This license is good for one computer
> (node-locked) *and* also locked to the particular Xilinx device on your
> demo board.
>
> There's nothing to stop you from using it on your own hardware, provided
> you choose the same chip. =A0Any other cores provided are also licensed
> for use on that particular chip. =A0I'm not familiar enough with Spartan
> 6 to know if you would normally pay for the PCIe license, but on the
> Virtex 5 parts that have a built-in PCIe endpoint block the "wrapper"
> core is free. =A0Ditto for the ethernet MAC block wrappers. =A0The Ethern=
et
> TriMode soft MAC is not free.
>
> For very simple MicroBlaze-based designs there is a "simple MicroBlaze"
> pre-built core available at no charge, with very limited connectivity.
> You can use this wih the SDK without the need for the EDK. =A0However
> as soon as you want to build a processor with external memory and/or
> network connectivity you need to pony up for the EDK.
>
> As far as I know, all of the Xilinx licenses are not time limited for
> use, but do have a time limit for maintenance (includes upgrades to
> the latest version - not always a blessing). =A0The renewal fee for
> maintenance is almost the same as a new license. =A0You also get
> webcase support while under maintenance. =A0After that you're back to
> trolling forums with the students.
>
> -- Gabor- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

> I'm not familiar enough with Spartan 6 to know if you would normally
> pay for the PCIe license, but on the Virtex 5 parts that have a built-in
> PCIe endpoint block the "wrapper" core is free

Spartan-6 devices also include an integrated PCIe block so there is no
extra license cost.

Ed McGettigan
--
Xilinx Inc.

On Jun 17, 7:33=A0am, Ed McGettigan <ed.mcgetti...@xilinx.com> wrote:
> On Jun 16, 2:38=A0pm, Gabor <ga...@szakacs.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Simon wrote:
> > > Hopefully not sparking any religious wars here, but hoping for some
> > > advice from those-who-know :)
>
> > > I switched to using Altera's software a couple of years ago, because
> > > it felt more intuitive to me - probably a personal thing, but it just
> > > grocked better; however, I was browsing the xilinx site just recently=
,
> > > idly wondering if the -7 series that I'd heard so much about had
> > > actually arrived yet (big surprise, it's still vapour-ware to the
> > > likes of me), and I saw the SP605 evaluation kit had dropped to $695.
>
> > > This seems to be a really great deal. You get a nice high-bandwidth-
> > > memory card, with a PCI-e interface, and high-speed external
> > > connections (ok, only 68/34 pins, but still), as well as a full (even
> > > if device-locked) ISE license for both the EDK and ISE. My innate
> > > cynicism asks "what's the catch ?"
>
> > > So, I thought I'd access the wisdom of crowds ([grin] on the first
> > > pass, that read: wisdom of crows :) and ask:
>
> > > =A0- Do you actually get a real, useful, not time-limited or anything
> > > like that PCIe core ?
> > > =A0- Ditto for the DDR memory core ?
> > > =A0- Ditto for the Microblaze core ?
> > > =A0- Does "lite" mean the ethernet-lite core "only' does 10/100 rathe=
r
> > > than 10/100/1000 ?
>
> > > It seems to suggest in the docs that the answers to the above are
> > > {yes, yes, yes, yes}, but that seems too good to be true. Over in
> > > Altera-land I'd be paying $500 for the nios2 license, and $1000 for
> > > the memory/ethernet cores, both on top of a board-cost... I'm halfway
> > > through a project that uses a nios2 qsys-based system, and for the ~
> > > $1000 difference, I'm happy to port it back to Xilinx (this is a
> > > hobby, the cost/benefit analysis is different to most people's on her=
e
> > > - y'all don't have the 'WAF' (wife-approval factor) to consider, and
> > > WAF trumps pretty much all :)
>
> > > I understand that if I ever wanted to target something other than an
> > > LX45T I'd have to re-purchase the software. Does that apply to the ED=
K
> > > as well as ISE ? Or could I use the EDK that comes with the kit in
> > > tandem with WebPack to target a smaller device ?
>
> > > Cheers
>
> > > Simon
>
> > Xilinx has a new approach to supplying software with demo boards. =A0Re=
ad
> > the fine print with your board, but generally what you get is a license
> > to use the full EDK (Microblaze development software), which is
> > otherwise quite expensive. =A0This license is good for one computer
> > (node-locked) *and* also locked to the particular Xilinx device on your
> > demo board.
>
> > There's nothing to stop you from using it on your own hardware, provide=
d
> > you choose the same chip. =A0Any other cores provided are also licensed
> > for use on that particular chip. =A0I'm not familiar enough with Sparta=
n
> > 6 to know if you would normally pay for the PCIe license, but on the
> > Virtex 5 parts that have a built-in PCIe endpoint block the "wrapper"
> > core is free. =A0Ditto for the ethernet MAC block wrappers. =A0The Ethe=
rnet
> > TriMode soft MAC is not free.
>
> > For very simple MicroBlaze-based designs there is a "simple MicroBlaze"
> > pre-built core available at no charge, with very limited connectivity.
> > You can use this wih the SDK without the need for the EDK. =A0However
> > as soon as you want to build a processor with external memory and/or
> > network connectivity you need to pony up for the EDK.
>
> > As far as I know, all of the Xilinx licenses are not time limited for
> > use, but do have a time limit for maintenance (includes upgrades to
> > the latest version - not always a blessing). =A0The renewal fee for
> > maintenance is almost the same as a new license. =A0You also get
> > webcase support while under maintenance. =A0After that you're back to
> > trolling forums with the students.
>
> > -- Gabor- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
> > I'm not familiar enough with Spartan 6 to know if you would normally
> > pay for the PCIe license, but on the Virtex 5 parts that have a built-i=
n
> > PCIe endpoint block the "wrapper" core is free
>
> Spartan-6 devices also include an integrated PCIe block so there is no
> extra license cost.
>
> Ed McGettigan
> --
> Xilinx Inc.

Thanks Ed, (and everyone else). Looks like I'll be getting one of the
embedded kits then. Everyone wins, because as soon as I actually pay
for it, the Zynq or -7 series will immediately be available... That's
just the way it goes :)

Cheers
   Simon

Simon,

I have been through a similar exercise recently -

Avnet has the EK-S6-SP605-G listed as in stock at $495....rather than 
$695...

However, I ended up purchasing an EBV DB4CGX15 Altera Cyclone IV pcie 
development board, online from www.devboards.de ,  for 133 euros (around 
$190) - this provides similar functionality with a similar deal to the 
SP605.  Maybe worth a look...although a lot depends on the detail of what 
you want to do with the card..

Regards,
Tom C.


"Simon" <google@gornall.net> wrote in message 
news:7beafd0e-b915-4e67-9b4c-3fe7c8bb741c@k15g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> Hopefully not sparking any religious wars here, but hoping for some
> advice from those-who-know :)
>
> I switched to using Altera's software a couple of years ago, because
> it felt more intuitive to me - probably a personal thing, but it just
> grocked better; however, I was browsing the xilinx site just recently,
> idly wondering if the -7 series that I'd heard so much about had
> actually arrived yet (big surprise, it's still vapour-ware to the
> likes of me), and I saw the SP605 evaluation kit had dropped to $695.
>
> This seems to be a really great deal. You get a nice high-bandwidth-
> memory card, with a PCI-e interface, and high-speed external
> connections (ok, only 68/34 pins, but still), as well as a full (even
> if device-locked) ISE license for both the EDK and ISE. My innate
> cynicism asks "what's the catch ?"
>
> So, I thought I'd access the wisdom of crowds ([grin] on the first
> pass, that read: wisdom of crows :) and ask:
>
> - Do you actually get a real, useful, not time-limited or anything
> like that PCIe core ?
> - Ditto for the DDR memory core ?
> - Ditto for the Microblaze core ?
> - Does "lite" mean the ethernet-lite core "only' does 10/100 rather
> than 10/100/1000 ?
>
> It seems to suggest in the docs that the answers to the above are
> {yes, yes, yes, yes}, but that seems too good to be true. Over in
> Altera-land I'd be paying $500 for the nios2 license, and $1000 for
> the memory/ethernet cores, both on top of a board-cost... I'm halfway
> through a project that uses a nios2 qsys-based system, and for the ~
> $1000 difference, I'm happy to port it back to Xilinx (this is a
> hobby, the cost/benefit analysis is different to most people's on here
> - y'all don't have the 'WAF' (wife-approval factor) to consider, and
> WAF trumps pretty much all :)
>
> I understand that if I ever wanted to target something other than an
> LX45T I'd have to re-purchase the software. Does that apply to the EDK
> as well as ISE ? Or could I use the EDK that comes with the kit in
> tandem with WebPack to target a smaller device ?
>
> Cheers
>
> Simon 

> However, I ended up purchasing an EBV DB4CGX15 Altera Cyclone IV pcie 
> development board, online from www.devboards.de ,  for 133 euros (around 
> $190) - this provides similar functionality with a similar deal to the 
> SP605.  Maybe worth a look...although a lot depends on the detail of what 
> you want to do with the card..


Did they fix the RAM address bug? Afaik 256mb memory was actually smaller - 
32mb, because they did not connect last address pins. 

On Jun 19, 12:59=A0pm, "Chopper" <Chop...@gymrat.force9.co.uk> wrote:
> Simon,
>
> I have been through a similar exercise recently -
>
> Avnet has the EK-S6-SP605-G listed as in stock at $495....rather than
> $695...

Yep, but thats the 'Evaluation kit' not the 'Embedded evaluation kit'.
You get the EDK for $200 if you go for the embedded version.

> However, I ended up purchasing an EBV DB4CGX15 Altera Cyclone IV pcie
> development board, online fromwww.devboards.de, =A0for 133 euros (around
> $190) - this provides similar functionality with a similar deal to the
> SP605. =A0Maybe worth a look...although a lot depends on the detail of wh=
at
> you want to do with the card..

I saw it, and it's tempting for the price, but there weren't enough I/
O pins for what I need :( I did consider using a CPLD as a port-
expander-type-of-thing, but in the end I think the 605 will be a lot
easier...

Cheers

   Simon

The RAM size is still 32Mb.  Devboards committed most of the FPGA outputs to 
a user accessible header (and didn't have the nous to make two additional 
bits jumper selectable, so they could be used either for RAM address or for 
header pin use. That's not a major problem in my immediate application, as I 
am using the board simply as a pcie I/O test bed,  part of a larger design, 
and am relaying the circuit, together with other devices, as part of a 
larger PCB, now that I am happy with the pcie sustained transfer rates 
(under busmaster DMA) and the SERDES throughput the Cyclone IV can sustain 
through the pcie port.


"scrts" <hidden@email.com> wrote in message 
news:itmlah$icb$1@dont-email.me...
>> However, I ended up purchasing an EBV DB4CGX15 Altera Cyclone IV pcie 
>> development board, online from www.devboards.de ,  for 133 euros (around 
>> $190) - this provides similar functionality with a similar deal to the 
>> SP605.  Maybe worth a look...although a lot depends on the detail of what 
>> you want to do with the card..
>
>
> Did they fix the RAM address bug? Afaik 256mb memory was actually 
> smaller - 32mb, because they did not connect last address pins.
> 

I saw it, and it's tempting for the price, but there weren't enough I/
O pins for what I need :( I did consider using a CPLD as a port-
expander-type-of-thing, but in the end I think the 605 will be a lot
easier...

Maybe You're interested in other manufacturers? E.g. Lattice offers ECP3 
FPGA devkit with transceivers and PCI-e connection, plus 1Gb DDR3 memory and 
two gigabit network transceivers for 99$.
http://www.latticesemi.com/products/developmenthardware/developmentkits/ecp3versadevelopmentkit/index.cfm

Afaik software tools are also OK from Lattice, since they use Synplify for 
synthesis. Anyway, check it out, seems like very good price for such board.