On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 21:40:48 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 10/28/2012 9:28 PM, krw@att.bizzz wrote:
>> On Sat, 27 Oct 2012 19:39:22 -0400, rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/27/2012 3:28 PM, krw@att.bizzz wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 26 Oct 2012 08:24:14 -0700, John Larkin
>>>> <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com>   wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We are seeing huge leadtimes on Altera FPGAs, specifically Arria II
>>>>> GX65 and 95. Numbers like 20 weeks and worse.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this specific to Altera, or to Arria parts? I wonder if all the
>>>>> cell phones and tablets and stuff are overloading the fabs.
>>>>
>>>> I've been told that everyone is cutting back production starts,
>>>> expecting 2010 redux if Obama is reelected.
>>>
>>> Geeze, can't you leave politics out of a technical thread?  Oh, I
>>> forgot, this is sci.electronics.design!  Politics is always on topic...
>>
>> Idiot, it *is* the reason given.  You really are a loser, like you boy
>> Obama.
>
>Oh yeah, like everyone hates Obama and thinks the world will end if he 
>is elected.

You really are an idiot's idiot.

>Reminds me of the movie "Chinatown", at the end someone says something 
>like, "Forget about it Jack, its Chinatown".  I should forget about it, 
>this is just s.e.d.

Good God, you're as stupid as Slowman.

On 10/28/2012 9:28 PM, krw@att.bizzz wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Oct 2012 19:39:22 -0400, rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>> On 10/27/2012 3:28 PM, krw@att.bizzz wrote:
>>> On Fri, 26 Oct 2012 08:24:14 -0700, John Larkin
>>> <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com>   wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We are seeing huge leadtimes on Altera FPGAs, specifically Arria II
>>>> GX65 and 95. Numbers like 20 weeks and worse.
>>>>
>>>> Is this specific to Altera, or to Arria parts? I wonder if all the
>>>> cell phones and tablets and stuff are overloading the fabs.
>>>
>>> I've been told that everyone is cutting back production starts,
>>> expecting 2010 redux if Obama is reelected.
>>
>> Geeze, can't you leave politics out of a technical thread?  Oh, I
>> forgot, this is sci.electronics.design!  Politics is always on topic...
>
> Idiot, it *is* the reason given.  You really are a loser, like you boy
> Obama.

Oh yeah, like everyone hates Obama and thinks the world will end if he 
is elected.

Reminds me of the movie "Chinatown", at the end someone says something 
like, "Forget about it Jack, its Chinatown".  I should forget about it, 
this is just s.e.d.

Rick

On Sat, 27 Oct 2012 19:39:22 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 10/27/2012 3:28 PM, krw@att.bizzz wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 Oct 2012 08:24:14 -0700, John Larkin
>> <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We are seeing huge leadtimes on Altera FPGAs, specifically Arria II
>>> GX65 and 95. Numbers like 20 weeks and worse.
>>>
>>> Is this specific to Altera, or to Arria parts? I wonder if all the
>>> cell phones and tablets and stuff are overloading the fabs.
>>
>> I've been told that everyone is cutting back production starts,
>> expecting 2010 redux if Obama is reelected.
>
>Geeze, can't you leave politics out of a technical thread?  Oh, I 
>forgot, this is sci.electronics.design!  Politics is always on topic...

Idiot, it *is* the reason given.  You really are a loser, like you boy
Obama.

In article <k6hcb9$tc1$4@dont-email.me>, rickman  <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 10/26/2012 11:24 AM, John Larkin wrote:
>>
>>
>> We are seeing huge leadtimes on Altera FPGAs, specifically Arria II
>> GX65 and 95. Numbers like 20 weeks and worse.
>>
>> Is this specific to Altera, or to Arria parts? I wonder if all the
>> cell phones and tablets and stuff are overloading the fabs.
>
>Since when do they use FPGAs in high volume stuff like cell phones or 
>tablets?

It used to be that a fair number were used in LCD TVs: meant you could
get your panels from wherever panels were cheapest that day and
program the FPGA to drive that particular panel type.  I suspect that
there's been enough of a shakeout in the LCD TV factory world that
there are now very few panel types and not much of a spot market for
them.

Tom

In comp.arch.fpga rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

(snip)
>> Since ASIC mask costs went over $1e6 or so, and FPGA prices
>> fell enough to make it cost effective.

>> Besides, with an ASIC you are stuck with that design for
>> a long time, but with FPGA you can change to follow
>> what is popular.
 
> Isn't a megabuck still in the noise for cell phones and tablets? 
> Gartner and IDC say there were 1.5 *Billion* cell phones sold in the 
> world in 2011!  I'll bet damn few of them contained any FPGAs.  That is 
> what Silicon Blue (now part of Lattice) was trying to change, but I 
> don't know how successful they are in that particular market selling 
> $1-2 parts.

Maybe true, but FPGAs are going in many places that would have
been custom ASICs not so long ago. 
 
> Have you seen any teardowns of tablets or cell phones with FPGAs in 
> them?  I haven't.

I haven't followed the teardowns closely at all.

-- glen

John Larkin wrote:


> You would think, for $200 to $15,000 per FPGA, that they could get
> their wafers fabbed.
I see those $7K to 15K FPGAs in the distributor listings, and wonder
WHO the hell can afford a $7K or more chip?  I'm guessing some
simulation farms and NSA code crackers have good reason for such
chips, but that must be a fairly small niche market, no?  Obviously,
no such chip ever winds up in consumer gear.

Jon

On 10/27/2012 9:06 PM, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
> In comp.arch.fpga rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com>  wrote:
>
> (snip)
>> Since when do they use FPGAs in high volume stuff like cell phones or
>> tablets?
>
>> I see FPGA supply vary all the time as well as other devices.  Once I
>> couldn't get an AKM CODEC in the 8 week window I tend to rely on and the
>> disti got AKM in the loop.  They said they had a reliable 14 week
>> factory delivery as if that was something to brag about!  I'm a small
>> player so all I can do is grin and say "thank you".
>
> Since ASIC mask costs went over $1e6 or so, and FPGA prices
> fell enough to make it cost effective.
>
> Besides, with an ASIC you are stuck with that design for
> a long time, but with FPGA you can change to follow
> what is popular.
>
> -- glen

Isn't a megabuck still in the noise for cell phones and tablets? 
Gartner and IDC say there were 1.5 *Billion* cell phones sold in the 
world in 2011!  I'll bet damn few of them contained any FPGAs.  That is 
what Silicon Blue (now part of Lattice) was trying to change, but I 
don't know how successful they are in that particular market selling 
$1-2 parts.

Have you seen any teardowns of tablets or cell phones with FPGAs in 
them?  I haven't.

Rick

In comp.arch.fpga rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

(snip)
> Since when do they use FPGAs in high volume stuff like cell phones or 
> tablets?
 
> I see FPGA supply vary all the time as well as other devices.  Once I 
> couldn't get an AKM CODEC in the 8 week window I tend to rely on and the 
> disti got AKM in the loop.  They said they had a reliable 14 week 
> factory delivery as if that was something to brag about!  I'm a small 
> player so all I can do is grin and say "thank you".

Since ASIC mask costs went over $1e6 or so, and FPGA prices
fell enough to make it cost effective.

Besides, with an ASIC you are stuck with that design for
a long time, but with FPGA you can change to follow
what is popular.

-- glen

On Oct 28, 1:26=A0am, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/27/2012 5:16 PM, Michael S wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 27, 10:01 pm, rickman<gnu...@gmail.com> =A0wrote:
> >> On 10/27/2012 3:47 PM, langw...@fonz.dk wrote:
>
> >>> On 27 Okt., 12:37, rickman<gnu...@gmail.com> =A0 =A0wrote:
> >>>> On 10/26/2012 11:24 AM, John Larkin wrote:
>
> >>>>> We are seeing huge leadtimes on Altera FPGAs, specifically Arria II
> >>>>> GX65 and 95. Numbers like 20 weeks and worse.
>
> >>>>> Is this specific to Altera, or to Arria parts? I wonder if all the
> >>>>> cell phones and tablets and stuff are overloading the fabs.
>
> >>>> Since when do they use FPGAs in high volume stuff like cell phones o=
r
> >>>> tablets?
>
> >>> they don't, but as far I know Altera use TSMC, Xilinx UMC so they
> >>> compete for time at the fabs with the cell phone stuff
>
> >>> -Lasse
>
> >> That may be, but the fabs schedule production runs way, way in advance=
.
> >> =A0 =A0I'm sure Xilinx and Altera are at the head of the list when it =
comes
> >> to getting more share as well.
>
> > Quallcomm is way more important than ether X or A.
> > Even NVidea and AMD are, at very least, as important as X&A.
> > Also, does not TI use TSMC for OMAP5? If true, it wouldn't affect
> > Arria2, since it uses older fabs, but could affect priority of 5-
> > series Altera products.
>
> >> =A0 If there was a shortage, it would more
> >> likely be higher FPGA demand than it would be X or A getting cut out o=
f
> >> their fab time.
>
> >> Rick
>
> > It's the same thing seen from different angle.
> > You have higher demand than was originally expected and then want to
> > get more waffers than what's already scheduled, but can't because you
> > are not the most important of TSMC customers.
>
> I don't think any customers are the 600 lb gorilla.

But Qualcomm and Apple *are* 600 lb gorillas of fabless semico. That's
a fact of life.
Apple is currently on Samsung, but relationships between the two are
bad. So the switch is likely. And if Apple switches to TSMC then any
other TSMC client with exception of Qualcomm, and, possibly, Bradcom
and TI will look as a Lilliput. And even in Lilliput category, Altera
and Xilinx are smaller than Nvidea and AMD.


>=A0A small customer might get displaced, but none of the large customers e=
xpect to have
> their schedules disrupted and none expect to be able to disrupt the
> schedules of the other gorillas.
>
> Rick

Schedules of big Lilliput wouldn't be disrupted, but he can't expect
to get the same flexibility of allocation of the wafers as 600 lb
gorillas

On 10/27/2012 3:28 PM, krw@att.bizzz wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Oct 2012 08:24:14 -0700, John Larkin
> <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com>  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> We are seeing huge leadtimes on Altera FPGAs, specifically Arria II
>> GX65 and 95. Numbers like 20 weeks and worse.
>>
>> Is this specific to Altera, or to Arria parts? I wonder if all the
>> cell phones and tablets and stuff are overloading the fabs.
>
> I've been told that everyone is cutting back production starts,
> expecting 2010 redux if Obama is reelected.

Geeze, can't you leave politics out of a technical thread?  Oh, I 
forgot, this is sci.electronics.design!  Politics is always on topic...

Rick