glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:

> I have wondered if the Xilinx software and cable will load or dump
> JTAG devices that aren't FPGAs.

By generating SVF files I've programmed Altera FPGA's using Xilinx
impact and cable (or the other way around, can't remember). I would
expect it to work both ways as long as you can generate and play a SVF
file.

//Petter

-- 
.sig removed by request.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 16:38:46 -0800, jackm wrote:

>> Forget the Altera cable, because Xilinx software doesn't work with
>> anything they don't make or authorize.
> 
> Yes I know that Xilinx software would not work with an Altera programmer
> but my question is what if I used Altera's Quartus II software with the
> Altera programmer?
> I don't know much about JTAG but would it be possible for the Quartus II
> software to detect a Xilinx device in the JTAG chain and let me program
> it with a file of my choosing??

You may wanna try Lattice's software, provided you have hardware at hand 
you can use with it.

Of the many different programming schemes, they have what they call "JTAG 
full VME embedded" system. It consists of a small program that is 
supposed to be uploaded to a dedicated programmer and which takes as 
input VME files. VME files are a 1:1 binary format of SVF files. This 
program can also be used on a PC equipped with random peripherals. You 
will need to teach it how to use your hardware and you will probably need 
to severely optimize the program to account for very high latencies of a 
PC system, but it can be done. If your Xilinx software can produce SVF 
files, the Lattice embedded programmer is supposed to be able to program 
devices with it. It even has special provisions for Xilinx devices 
written into the source (the programmer is open source).

jackm wrote:

> 
>> Forget the Altera cable, because Xilinx software doesn't work
>> with anything they don't make or authorize.
> 
> Yes I know that Xilinx software would not work with an Altera programmer
> but my question is what if I used Altera's Quartus II software with the
> Altera programmer? I don't know much about JTAG but would it be possible
> for the Quartus II software to detect a Xilinx device in the JTAG chain
> and let me program it with a file of my choosing??
Pretty unlikely.  i think the FPGAs have the memory divided into blocks,
and each block has a CRC that has to match a live one that is
calculated as it is loading for the load to be accepted.
I guess the CRC is actually present in the .bit file, but there still needs
to be a bunch of hand-shaking for it to all work.

The standardisation of the JTAG only goes as far as having several
JTAG ports connected in a serial string, and getting a device type
ID from each device.  So, it would be EXTREMELY unlikely that Altera
software would accept a Xilinx .bit file, or know how to set up the
internal state of a Xilinx CPLD for programming/downloading.

Now, a Xilinx CPLD is a bit different, they look a lot more like
a generic memory, and the programming file is in JEDEC format.
So, I think programming them might be a bit more generic.

Jon

GaborSzakacs wrote:



> If you can still get the Chinese clones for $30 that might be
> the cheapest way without jumping through a lot of hoops.
> 
They are still showing up on eBay for $30 - 45, quite a few listings
of new units.  Probably all unofficial clones, I'm guessing.

Jon

glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> jackm <jmm385@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Yes I know that Xilinx software would not work with an Altera 
> > programmer but my question is what if I used Altera's Quartus II 
> > software with the Altera programmer?
> > I don't know much about JTAG but would it be possible for the 
> > Quartus II software to detect a Xilinx device in the JTAG chain 
> > and let me program it with a file of my choosing??
> 
> I have wondered if the Xilinx software and cable will load or dump
> JTAG devices that aren't FPGAs.
> 
> Seems like it is the same question for Altera.

Quartus' JTAG programmer will program flash that's hung off an FPGA, but
sometimes you need to load a 'programmer' bitfile into the FPGA first -
since often flash doesn't have a direct JTAG port.

Programming FPGAs themselves is an Altera/Xilinx specific protocol - you
don't just throw bitfiles at them.  JAM/STAPL is an output format for
non-Altera tools/programmers to program Altera FPGAs (eg some a host MCU can
program its nextdoor PLD) - looks like Xilinx are similar:
http://corelis.com/blog/pld-tools-creating-svf-jam-stapl-and-other-formats/
This is better supported in the CPLD world than the FPGA world however.

However this is just about programming - you don't get to interact with the
device afterwards without the vendor tools (that means things like logic
analysers, debuggers, JTAG UARTs, etc require the vendor cable).

Theo

Den onsdag den 25. februar 2015 kl. 23.10.46 UTC+1 skrev Gabor:
> Jon Elson wrote:
> > jackm wrote:
> > 
> >> Hello,
> >> I am looking for an ultra-cheap way to program Xilinx CPLDs and FPGAs.  On
> >> Ebay they sell Altera USB Blaster JTAG programmers that ship from China
> >> and are fake copies I assume, they cost less than $7 inc shipping. If I
> >> download and install Altera Quartus II software can I use that to JTAG
> >> program my device file compiled in Xilinx ISE? Thanks for any help.
> > I got a Platform USB cable from China for about $30.  I'm guessing it
> > is a well-made but unauthorized clone.  It works fine.
> > 
> > I used to use a Parallel Cable III, but have not been able to get it
> > to work on 64-bit Linux OS.
> > 
> > Jon
> 
> Xilinx dropped support for the Parallel cable 3 in recent versions
> of Impact.  It still supports Parallel cable 4.  That being said,
> it's getting harder to find a PC with a parallel port, and the
> Xilinx software doesn't like USB to parallel adapters, so at a
> minimum you'd need either a motherboard with the parallel port
> or a PCI add-in card with a legacy-compliant parallel port.
> 
> Forget the Altera cable, because Xilinx software doesn't work
> with anything they don't make or authorize.  A lot of small
> cheap FPGA demo boards use an FTDI chip that is compatible
> with Digilent's Adept software.  It might actually be cheaper
> if you can find such a board on eBay and just put wires on
> the JTAG lines to go to your own board (you'd have to cut the
> TDO connection from the on-board FPGA).
> 
> If you can still get the Chinese clones for $30 that might be
> the cheapest way without jumping through a lot of hoops.
> 
> -- 
> Gabor

$59 isn't terribly expensive for something that works with the Xilinx software

http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,395,1298&Prod=JTAG-HS3

-Lasse

Stef wrote:
> On 2015-02-26 glen herrmannsfeldt wrote in comp.arch.fpga:
>> jackm <jmm385@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Forget the Altera cable, because Xilinx software doesn't work
>>>> with anything they don't make or authorize.
>>  
>>> Yes I know that Xilinx software would not work with an Altera 
>>> programmer but my question is what if I used Altera's Quartus II 
>>> software with the Altera programmer?
>>> I don't know much about JTAG but would it be possible for the 
>>> Quartus II software to detect a Xilinx device in the JTAG chain 
>>> and let me program it with a file of my choosing??
>> I have wondered if the Xilinx software and cable will load or dump
>> JTAG devices that aren't FPGAs.
>>
>> Seems like it is the same question for Altera.
>>
>> You might have to convert the bits to a different format first, though.
> 
> Well, in a lot of cases you don't load the FPGA, you load the
> configuration memory. I remember a Spartan-3 project that where we
> booted the FPGA from SPI dataflash. This dataflash was directly
> programmed with Impact, using parallel cable IV(?) and also with
> the USB cable. In that same project there was another dataflash
> for a CPU that was also programmed using Impact. But indeed you
> had to watch things like word size bit order etc.
> 
> But this was all with stuff that's pretty old now, I don't know
> if they 'fixed' this in current stuff.
> 

They "fixed" direct SPI programming in the sense you "fix" the
cat you don't want to have kittens.  However there are much
cheaper devices on the market to go from USB to SPI that
can directly program SPI flash.  No good for direct JTAG load
of FPGA's or for ChipScope.

> Later we switched to using the Aardvark for programming the 
> dataflashes, as this was less cumbersome to use than Impact.
>

On 2015-02-26 glen herrmannsfeldt wrote in comp.arch.fpga:
> jackm <jmm385@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Forget the Altera cable, because Xilinx software doesn't work
>>> with anything they don't make or authorize.
>  
>> Yes I know that Xilinx software would not work with an Altera 
>> programmer but my question is what if I used Altera's Quartus II 
>> software with the Altera programmer?
>> I don't know much about JTAG but would it be possible for the 
>> Quartus II software to detect a Xilinx device in the JTAG chain 
>> and let me program it with a file of my choosing??
>
> I have wondered if the Xilinx software and cable will load or dump
> JTAG devices that aren't FPGAs.
>
> Seems like it is the same question for Altera.
>
> You might have to convert the bits to a different format first, though.

Well, in a lot of cases you don't load the FPGA, you load the
configuration memory. I remember a Spartan-3 project that where we
booted the FPGA from SPI dataflash. This dataflash was directly
programmed with Impact, using parallel cable IV(?) and also with
the USB cable. In that same project there was another dataflash
for a CPU that was also programmed using Impact. But indeed you
had to watch things like word size bit order etc.

But this was all with stuff that's pretty old now, I don't know
if they 'fixed' this in current stuff.

Later we switched to using the Aardvark for programming the 
dataflashes, as this was less cumbersome to use than Impact.

-- 
Stef    (remove caps, dashes and .invalid from e-mail address to reply by mail)

Don't talk to me about naval tradition.  It's nothing but rum, sodomy and
the lash.
	-- Winston Churchill

jackm <jmm385@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Forget the Altera cable, because Xilinx software doesn't work
>> with anything they don't make or authorize.
 
> Yes I know that Xilinx software would not work with an Altera 
> programmer but my question is what if I used Altera's Quartus II 
> software with the Altera programmer?
> I don't know much about JTAG but would it be possible for the 
> Quartus II software to detect a Xilinx device in the JTAG chain 
> and let me program it with a file of my choosing??

I have wondered if the Xilinx software and cable will load or dump
JTAG devices that aren't FPGAs.

Seems like it is the same question for Altera.

You might have to convert the bits to a different format first, though.

-- glen