> On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:26:06 +0100, David Brown
> <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:
>
>> On 24/01/2011 23:17, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:51:12 -0800 (PST), rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>> <snip>
>>>> But none of this has to do with nationality.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It is important to distinguish between nationality and a country's laws
>> and bureaucracy - the regulations in John's quotation are about a
>> country's regulations, not an issue with the people.
>>
>>> http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4212317/Xilinx--sales-fall-short-of-estimates
>>>
>>> "Xilinx recorded $4.3 million worth of restructuring charges during
>>> the recently concluded quarter. Olson said the charges were greater
>>> than expected because the company is closing its software development
>>> operation in France, where regulations make eliminating jobs
>>> difficult."
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>
>> Clearly we don't know /what/ regulations are at issue here, as there
>> could be many.
>>
>> In general, you have to have good reason for firing people in Europe,
>> and normally you have to give significant notice (I don't know the
>> details for France, but 3 months is standard here in Norway. Of course,
>> this also means you can't quit your job without giving 3 months notice -
>> it works both ways).
>
> Does the law require that you remain productive during those three
> months?
>
Note - I might not be entirely accurate here, since I am not involved in
HR (other than helping with some technical interviews), and I've had the
same job for the last sixteen years.
Yes, you are bound by your contract (which employers must have with each
employee, except for very short-term temporaries). Of course, it would
get very messy if the employer had to sue the employee in court for
breach of contract - generally if the employee is not going to do useful
work for those 3 months, the employer and employee will reach an
agreement. For example, if the employee is going to work for a
competitor, the employer will probably effectively give him 3 months
paid leave. It is also possible to make different arrangements, such as
cutting out the 3 months so that the employee can start a new job
immediately.
The point of all this is to give both the employer and the employee a
degree of stability. When you have a permanent job, you know you have a
predictable income for the next three months at least. And when you
have employed someone, you know they are not going to drop everything
and disappear without notice.
It makes it harder to fire a worker who doesn't do a good job (though
you can still be fired on very short notice if you are doing something
criminal, or dangerous, or grossly disloyal to your employer).
>
> But cutting staff because you are downsizing /is/
>> a good reason, though you might have to pay some sort of severance pay
>> or other compensation. You can't just tell employees to clear their
>> desks on the day, but you certainly can eliminate jobs.
>
> Here in California, an employer can ask an employee to take their
> stuff and leave, this very day or this very instant. I did that last
> week. And an employee can quit without notice. I've had people walk
> into my office, say "I quit", and walk out.
>
Perhaps the Norwegian way takes some of the fun and excitement out of
the employer-employee relationship...
Reply by Spehro Pefhany●January 26, 20112011-01-26
On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 12:05:51 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:26:06 +0100, David Brown
><david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:
>
>>On 24/01/2011 23:17, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:51:12 -0800 (PST), rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>><snip>
>>>> But none of this has to do with nationality.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>
>>It is important to distinguish between nationality and a country's laws
>>and bureaucracy - the regulations in John's quotation are about a
>>country's regulations, not an issue with the people.
>>
>>> http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4212317/Xilinx--sales-fall-short-of-estimates
>>>
>>> "Xilinx recorded $4.3 million worth of restructuring charges during
>>> the recently concluded quarter. Olson said the charges were greater
>>> than expected because the company is closing its software development
>>> operation in France, where regulations make eliminating jobs
>>> difficult."
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>
>>Clearly we don't know /what/ regulations are at issue here, as there
>>could be many.
>>
>>In general, you have to have good reason for firing people in Europe,
>>and normally you have to give significant notice (I don't know the
>>details for France, but 3 months is standard here in Norway. Of course,
>>this also means you can't quit your job without giving 3 months notice -
>>it works both ways).
>
>Does the law require that you remain productive during those three
>months?
>
>
> But cutting staff because you are downsizing /is/
>>a good reason, though you might have to pay some sort of severance pay
>>or other compensation. You can't just tell employees to clear their
>>desks on the day, but you certainly can eliminate jobs.
>
>Here in California, an employer can ask an employee to take their
>stuff and leave, this very day or this very instant. I did that last
>week. And an employee can quit without notice. I've had people walk
>into my office, say "I quit", and walk out.
>
>John
On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 13:21:14 -0800, "Joel Koltner"
<zapwireDASHgroups@yahoo.com> wrote:
>"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
>news:bfv0k6ldmvka2jrkijvsm0af1m2tturev3@4ax.com...
>> Here in California, an employer can ask an employee to take their
>> stuff and leave, this very day or this very instant. I did that last
>> week.
>
>I've read stories of where a group of folks were asked to come out to the
>parking lot for a "meeting" and then told... oh, hey, you're laid off -- we'll
>be sending your personal effects to you via mail!
>
>That's pretty brutal, but I suppose it's meant to insure there's absolutely no
>chance someone starts to sabotage their employer... although you have to
>wonder what sort of relationship management has with their employees when that
>sort of thing crosses their minds; it kinda implies that the relationship was
>more one of "we're each out to exploit the other as much as possible" rather
>than one closer to "everyone wins."
>
>> And an employee can quit without notice. I've had people walk
>> into my office, say "I quit", and walk out.
>
>That's when you say, "You can't quit, because I've already fired you!" :-)
>
>---Joel
Nope, you always let them quit. If you fire them, they have a chance
at getting unemployment, which can cost you. If they quit, they are
SOL!
Charlie
Reply by lang...@fonz.dk●January 26, 20112011-01-26
On 26 Jan., 21:05, John Larkin
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:26:06 +0100, David Brown
>
>
>
> <da...@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:
> >On 24/01/2011 23:17, John Larkin wrote:
> >> On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:51:12 -0800 (PST), rickman<gnu...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> ><snip>
> >>> But none of this has to do with nationality.
>
> >>> Rick
>
> >It is important to distinguish between nationality and a country's laws
> >and bureaucracy - the regulations in John's quotation are about a
> >country's regulations, not an issue with the people.
>
> >>http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4212317/Xilinx--sales-fall-sh..=
.
>
> >> "Xilinx recorded $4.3 million worth of restructuring charges during
> >> the recently concluded quarter. Olson said the charges were greater
> >> than expected because the company is closing its software development
> >> operation in France, where regulations make eliminating jobs
> >> difficult."
>
> >> John
>
> >Clearly we don't know /what/ regulations are at issue here, as there
> >could be many.
>
> >In general, you have to have good reason for firing people in Europe,
> >and normally you have to give significant notice (I don't know the
> >details for France, but 3 months is standard here in Norway. =A0Of cours=
e,
> >this also means you can't quit your job without giving 3 months notice -
> >it works both ways).
>
> Does the law require that you remain productive during those three
> months?
here in Denmark it is the same 3 month minimum notice for employer
after first 6 months,
and it goes up by one month for ever 3 years of emplyment.
It is only one month for employees.
The law says you have to do you jobs as you normally would
but you have the right to spend some time for job interviews etc.
and an employer can't make you do jobs that you normally wouldn't.
>
> =A0But cutting staff because you are downsizing /is/
heres special rule that if you fire more that ~10 there has to be
collective negotiations of how it is to be done and what the terms
will be
>
> >a good reason, though you might have to pay some sort of severance pay
> >or other compensation. =A0You can't just tell employees to clear their
> >desks on the day, but you certainly can eliminate jobs.
>
> Here in California, an employer can ask an employee to take their
> stuff and leave, this very day or this very instant. I did that last
> week. And an employee can quit without notice. I've had people walk
> into my office, say "I quit", and walk out.
>
> John
well you can tell an employee to leave immediately you'll just have
to keep paying the him for the severance period.
an employer can "expel" an employee, but that'll be in real serious
case like
stealing, spying, working for a competitor, not showing up for work
without and valid reason etc. it doesn't happen very often and usually
ends
up in court
technically I don't think an employee has the right to just leave, but
you
can't someone to show up for work
-Lasse
Reply by Joel Koltner●January 26, 20112011-01-26
"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:bfv0k6ldmvka2jrkijvsm0af1m2tturev3@4ax.com...
> Here in California, an employer can ask an employee to take their
> stuff and leave, this very day or this very instant. I did that last
> week.
I've read stories of where a group of folks were asked to come out to the
parking lot for a "meeting" and then told... oh, hey, you're laid off -- we'll
be sending your personal effects to you via mail!
That's pretty brutal, but I suppose it's meant to insure there's absolutely no
chance someone starts to sabotage their employer... although you have to
wonder what sort of relationship management has with their employees when that
sort of thing crosses their minds; it kinda implies that the relationship was
more one of "we're each out to exploit the other as much as possible" rather
than one closer to "everyone wins."
> And an employee can quit without notice. I've had people walk
> into my office, say "I quit", and walk out.
That's when you say, "You can't quit, because I've already fired you!" :-)
---Joel
Reply by Martin Brown●January 26, 20112011-01-26
On 26/01/2011 20:05, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:26:06 +0100, David Brown
> <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:
>
>> On 24/01/2011 23:17, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> In general, you have to have good reason for firing people in Europe,
>> and normally you have to give significant notice (I don't know the
>> details for France, but 3 months is standard here in Norway. Of course,
>> this also means you can't quit your job without giving 3 months notice -
>> it works both ways).
>
> Does the law require that you remain productive during those three
> months?
It can't and that is part of the problem.
Some good guys do and others lounge around - there obviously isn't much
you can do about it. My boss didn't work anything like as hard after he
handed in his notice but he still did a decent job.
Sometimes it is easier and better for all concerned to negotiate an
early split by mutual consent. But a contract of employment is a
contract and either side can choose to enforce it to the letter.
I object to the employment contracts that top merchant bankers have
which say that even if they wreck the company they are still entitled to
full pay for their entire term, golden parachutes and pension pots to go
with it. Fred the Shred being the most egregious example.
> But cutting staff because you are downsizing /is/
>> a good reason, though you might have to pay some sort of severance pay
>> or other compensation. You can't just tell employees to clear their
>> desks on the day, but you certainly can eliminate jobs.
>
> Here in California, an employer can ask an employee to take their
> stuff and leave, this very day or this very instant. I did that last
> week. And an employee can quit without notice. I've had people walk
> into my office, say "I quit", and walk out.
In the UK you would only do that if someone was moving to a competitor,
was guilty of gross misconduct, endangering life or serious criminal
acts. You would have to pay the three months compensation and holiday
allowance too. These days with multi GB media smaller than the size of a
thumbnail secrets walking is virtually impossible to prevent.
I have had a couple of employees escorted off the site that way.
On the flip side although you can in principle enforce the three month
notice on an employee it generally isn't worth the effort except
possibly at more senior levels. Most people are reasonable about it in
the UK, but if they are not then the employer doesn't really have much
leverage against someone who is planning to leave anyway.
Regards,
Martin Brown
Reply by John Larkin●January 26, 20112011-01-26
On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:26:06 +0100, David Brown
<david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:
>On 24/01/2011 23:17, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:51:12 -0800 (PST), rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
><snip>
>>> But none of this has to do with nationality.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>
>>
>
>It is important to distinguish between nationality and a country's laws
>and bureaucracy - the regulations in John's quotation are about a
>country's regulations, not an issue with the people.
>
>> http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4212317/Xilinx--sales-fall-short-of-estimates
>>
>> "Xilinx recorded $4.3 million worth of restructuring charges during
>> the recently concluded quarter. Olson said the charges were greater
>> than expected because the company is closing its software development
>> operation in France, where regulations make eliminating jobs
>> difficult."
>>
>> John
>>
>
>Clearly we don't know /what/ regulations are at issue here, as there
>could be many.
>
>In general, you have to have good reason for firing people in Europe,
>and normally you have to give significant notice (I don't know the
>details for France, but 3 months is standard here in Norway. Of course,
>this also means you can't quit your job without giving 3 months notice -
>it works both ways).
Does the law require that you remain productive during those three
months?
But cutting staff because you are downsizing /is/
>a good reason, though you might have to pay some sort of severance pay
>or other compensation. You can't just tell employees to clear their
>desks on the day, but you certainly can eliminate jobs.
Here in California, an employer can ask an employee to take their
stuff and leave, this very day or this very instant. I did that last
week. And an employee can quit without notice. I've had people walk
into my office, say "I quit", and walk out.
John
Reply by David Brown●January 25, 20112011-01-25
On 24/01/2011 23:17, John Larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:51:12 -0800 (PST), rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com>
> wrote:
<snip>
>> But none of this has to do with nationality.
>>
>> Rick
>
>
It is important to distinguish between nationality and a country's laws
and bureaucracy - the regulations in John's quotation are about a
country's regulations, not an issue with the people.
> http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4212317/Xilinx--sales-fall-short-of-estimates
>
> "Xilinx recorded $4.3 million worth of restructuring charges during
> the recently concluded quarter. Olson said the charges were greater
> than expected because the company is closing its software development
> operation in France, where regulations make eliminating jobs
> difficult."
>
> John
>
Clearly we don't know /what/ regulations are at issue here, as there
could be many.
In general, you have to have good reason for firing people in Europe,
and normally you have to give significant notice (I don't know the
details for France, but 3 months is standard here in Norway. Of course,
this also means you can't quit your job without giving 3 months notice -
it works both ways). But cutting staff because you are downsizing /is/
a good reason, though you might have to pay some sort of severance pay
or other compensation. You can't just tell employees to clear their
desks on the day, but you certainly can eliminate jobs.
So maybe there is more happening here - perhaps there is some sort of
agreement that depends on Xilinx employing a certain number of people,
tied to tax breaks, military contracts, etc.
Reply by David Brown●January 25, 20112011-01-25
On 24/01/2011 20:59, Greegor wrote:
> On Jan 24, 2:09 am, David Brown<da...@westcontrol.removethisbit.com>
> wrote:
>> I find it hard to believe that supposedly educated, intelligent and
>> experienced engineers can post such ignorant xenophobic drivel.
>>
>> Xilinx (or rather, their users and customers) have trouble with the
>> Xilinx software because the Xilinx leadership do not prioritise it
>> appropriately, and (apparently) do not listen to or understand the
>> issues customers have with the software. They alone are at fault. It
>> could well be that the main management fault was to hire a development
>> team that was not competent to do the development - but the problem is
>> their lack of competence, not their nationality!
>>
>> I know that sci.electronics.design is a hangout for mostly geriatric
>> American right-wingers who like to spend their free time blaming the
>> world's ills on "leftist weenies", foreigners, atheists, intellectuals,
>> and other dangerous sub-humans.
>
> You left out OUTSOURCING, Downsizing,
> dumping out staff en masse and hiring them
> all back as contractors to avoid social
> responsibilities, Pensions and raiding thereof,
> H1b visas and the way corporations take
> classes on how to BS around the law
> that requires them to hire qualified US people
> for the jobs first, etc.
I'd change "qualified US people" to "qualified local people", because
this is an international group, not a US group, and the same thing
applies to people in most countries. Apart from that I'd agree that a
lot of the current economic problems in the West stem these sorts of
things.
> (Where WERE you
> back in Jan 2010 when that was discussed?)
>
I haven't followed s.e.d. much for a while - the signal-to-noise ratio
is quite low, but when there is an interesting thread it can often be
very addictive and time-consuming.
> I would EXPECT that most US Engineers
> would be very well focused on all of those
> threats to their livelyhood, wouldn't you??
>
Again, this is /not/ a US issue - though as is often the case, the US
seems to be leading the West (for good and for bad) in these practices.
Typically the UK follows first, while the continental European
countries have stronger laws protecting employees and are less affected.
But yes, these are things that affect many engineers around the world.
Reply by David Brown●January 25, 20112011-01-25
On 24/01/2011 18:21, John Larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:09:42 +0100, David Brown
> <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:
>
>> On 23/01/2011 06:10, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 23:03:16 -0600, "krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
>>> <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 18:20:55 -0800, John Larkin
>>>> <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4212400/Xilinx-to-shutter-French-R-D-operation
>>>>>
>>>>> Yikes, this explains some stuff. I wonder how long it will take to
>>>>> undo the damage.
>>>>
>>>> Damage? The damage caused by closing a software development lab?
>>>
>>> I meant the damage likely *done* by that lab. We'd been speculating
>>> how Xininx managed to snarl up their software so thoroughly, and
>>> whether they will ever get it fixed. I can't imagine why they'd
>>> outsource something this important to France.
>>>
>>
>> I find it hard to believe that supposedly educated, intelligent and
>> experienced engineers can post such ignorant xenophobic drivel.
>
> Well, two facts exist:
>
> 1. Their software is a nightmare, and it's costing them business
>
> 2. They are dumping the French operation.
>
Fair enough.
> The software is the heart of an FPGA company. The very architecture of
> the chip has to be coordinated with possible compiler strategies. The
> idea of outsourcing anything this important to a group 8 or 9 time
> zones away, working in another language, in a country where it's
> almost impossible to fire incompetant workers, where people take long
> lunches with wine and don't work weekends, just amazes me.
>
I am also not a fan of outsourcing, and I agree 100% that time
differences and language differences can be a big problem. It may well
have contributed to Xilinx's software problems - that depends on how the
development process was organised and managed.
All I object to is the implication that the problems occurred because
the developers were French - an "explanation" that has been repeated
here several times as though that was all that anyone needs to know.
The fact is, there are competent and incompetent people in all
countries. Developing software like FPGA design software is hard, for
many reasons. None of us can tell if these particular developers did a
good job with a bad spec, or a bad job with a good spec, or where the
problem lies (though ultimately the buck must land at the top-level of
Xilinx management).
European work laws and work traditions are different from those in the
USA. But there is no reason to suggest that this in any way translates
to Americans doing better work than Europeans. You find it hard to
understand that some Europeans take long lunches (lunchtime alcohol is
quite rare these days except in wine-making regions, or in "business
lunches" - just like in the USA). Europeans find it hard to understand
how people can concentrate on work knowing they could be fired just
because the boss is having a bad hair day. It's not better or worse,
it's different.
>>
>> Xilinx (or rather, their users and customers) have trouble with the
>> Xilinx software because the Xilinx leadership do not prioritise it
>> appropriately, and (apparently) do not listen to or understand the
>> issues customers have with the software. They alone are at fault. It
>> could well be that the main management fault was to hire a development
>> team that was not competent to do the development - but the problem is
>> their lack of competence, not their nationality!
>
> I'd have been equally surprised had they outsourced anything this
> core-critical to any other country that far from San Jose. Big
> Software is nearly impossible to manage even without an ocean in the
> way.
>
Fair enough, and I agree here. Maybe I overreacted to the references to
France - I read your post as a specific condemnation of the lab having
been in France, rather than a general condemnation of the lab being
outsourced. It is not clear to me whether I inferred too much, or
whether you implied too much - if it is the former, then I apologise for
overreacting; if it is the later, then I hope you can see my point.
>
>>
>> I know that sci.electronics.design is a hangout for mostly geriatric
>> American right-wingers who like to spend their free time blaming the
>> world's ills on "leftist weenies", foreigners, atheists, intellectuals,
>> and other dangerous sub-humans.
>
> Jim isn't typical.
>
No, he stands out a bit even in s.e.d. But he isn't alone, either.
However, it makes the group good for an argument sometimes, if time
allows - there's no point arguing if everyone agrees, and s.e.d. is a
group where people don't hold back in their disagreements!
mvh.,
David