Potential New Design

I might be working on a smallish design shortly and I'm picking an FPGA.  I=
 don't have much in the way of requirments yet, but I'd like to have at lea=
st 2000 LUTs, 39 I/Os or more, but most importantly a board layout friendly=
 package.  That means no BGAs and no CSPs.  The board features are just too=
 small with those. =20

This design is offloading some functionality from an MCU that can easily be=
 done, but it seems FPGAs are treated as hardware including the code to pro=
gram them with.  So a few critical functions might be done this way includi=
ng a PID controller. =20

I'm a fan of Lattice because of their smaller parts.  The various lines don=
't have much in QFP or QFN packages though other than the iCE40 line.  They=
 have three Ultra parts from 1, 2 and 3.5 kLUTs and the Ultra Plus 5 kLUT p=
art, all in a 48 pin QFP. =20

There is a 4.3 kLUT XO3D in a 72 pin QFN package and the XO2 device is avai=
lable in a couple of different packages.  But they are pricey at $10 and up=
. =20

Any devices from other makers that are similar to these in low hassle packa=
ges?=20

--=20

  Rick C.

  - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
  - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 22/08/2020 06:01, Rick C wrote:
> I might be working on a smallish design shortly and I'm picking an FPGA.  I don't have much in the way of requirments yet, but I'd like to have at least 2000 LUTs, 39 I/Os or more, but most importantly a board layout friendly package.  That means no BGAs and no CSPs.  The board features are just too small with those.
> 
> This design is offloading some functionality from an MCU that can easily be done, but it seems FPGAs are treated as hardware including the code to program them with.  So a few critical functions might be done this way including a PID controller.
> 
> I'm a fan of Lattice because of their smaller parts.  The various lines don't have much in QFP or QFN packages though other than the iCE40 line.  They have three Ultra parts from 1, 2 and 3.5 kLUTs and the Ultra Plus 5 kLUT part, all in a 48 pin QFP.
> 
> There is a 4.3 kLUT XO3D in a 72 pin QFN package and the XO2 device is available in a couple of different packages.  But they are pricey at $10 and up.
> 
> Any devices from other makers that are similar to these in low hassle packages?
> 
I share your interest in more rational packages  - they are few and far 
between.

Mouser are listing stock of Gowin 4608 LE size parts in 100 pin LQFP and 
88 pin QFN.
They have the 8k LUT part in 88 pin QFN.
Prices are not that keen - I'd hoped for better.
Of course there is a very real danger that you'll swap one hassle for 
another with Gowin.
The parts look remarkably like Lattice XP2.

I'd be be really obliged if you had a go with these and published your 
experiences !

If I get the time I might have a go myself but it's always so hard to 
find a project that's worth doing but where you feel willing to take a 
risk of a key  part turning out 100% useless.

MK

On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 8:15:55 AM UTC-4, Michael Kellett wrote:
> On 22/08/2020 06:01, Rick C wrote:
> > I might be working on a smallish design shortly and I'm picking an FPGA=
.  I don't have much in the way of requirments yet, but I'd like to have at=
 least 2000 LUTs, 39 I/Os or more, but most importantly a board layout frie=
ndly package.  That means no BGAs and no CSPs.  The board features are just=
 too small with those.
> >=20
> > This design is offloading some functionality from an MCU that can easil=
y be done, but it seems FPGAs are treated as hardware including the code to=
 program them with.  So a few critical functions might be done this way inc=
luding a PID controller.
> >=20
> > I'm a fan of Lattice because of their smaller parts.  The various lines=
 don't have much in QFP or QFN packages though other than the iCE40 line.  =
They have three Ultra parts from 1, 2 and 3.5 kLUTs and the Ultra Plus 5 kL=
UT part, all in a 48 pin QFP.
> >=20
> > There is a 4.3 kLUT XO3D in a 72 pin QFN package and the XO2 device is =
available in a couple of different packages.  But they are pricey at $10 an=
d up.
> >=20
> > Any devices from other makers that are similar to these in low hassle p=
ackages?
> >=20
> I share your interest in more rational packages  - they are few and far=
=20
> between.
>=20
> Mouser are listing stock of Gowin 4608 LE size parts in 100 pin LQFP and=
=20
> 88 pin QFN.
> They have the 8k LUT part in 88 pin QFN.
> Prices are not that keen - I'd hoped for better.
> Of course there is a very real danger that you'll swap one hassle for=20
> another with Gowin.
> The parts look remarkably like Lattice XP2.
>=20
> I'd be be really obliged if you had a go with these and published your=20
> experiences !
>=20
> If I get the time I might have a go myself but it's always so hard to=20
> find a project that's worth doing but where you feel willing to take a=20
> risk of a key  part turning out 100% useless.
>=20
> MK

Yeah, Gowin might be a tough sell on this project.  It's about being able t=
o build a lot of devices quickly if needed.  Maybe I should reach out to th=
eir sales guy.  He was happy to discuss product with me before.  They aren'=
t just focusing on large volume customers like most of the Chinese companie=
s... well, most of the FPGA vendors for that matter.=20

Have you checked Edge for pricing?  They are a bit better than Mouser. =20

edgeelectronics.com

Looks like Digikey is carrying Efinix.  The only non-BGA package is the mon=
strous QFP144.  There's another potentially viable Chinese FPGA company, bu=
t I can't recall the name.  Not available through distribution though.  Yet=
 another one has nearly zero presence that isn't in Chinese.=20

--=20

  Rick C.

  + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
  + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Rick C wrote:

> I might be working on a smallish design shortly and I'm picking an FPGA. 
> I don't have much in the way of requirments yet, but I'd like to have at
> least 2000 LUTs, 39 I/Os or more, but most importantly a board layout
> friendly package.  That means no BGAs and no CSPs.  The board features are
> just too small with those.
> 
> This design is offloading some functionality from an MCU that can easily
> be done, but it seems FPGAs are treated as hardware including the code to
> program them with.  So a few critical functions might be done this way
> including a PID controller.
> 
> I'm a fan of Lattice because of their smaller parts.  The various lines
> don't have much in QFP or QFN packages though other than the iCE40 line. 
> They have three Ultra parts from 1, 2 and 3.5 kLUTs and the Ultra Plus 5
> kLUT part, all in a 48 pin QFP.
> 
> There is a 4.3 kLUT XO3D in a 72 pin QFN package and the XO2 device is
> available in a couple of different packages.  But they are pricey at $10
> and up.
> 
> Any devices from other makers that are similar to these in low hassle
> packages?
> 
Xilinx has the XC3S50A (Spartan 3) in 100 and 144-pin packages for $10,
and the Spartan 3AN with non-voltaile configuration memory for about $13 
each.  Digi-Key does not give volume discounts, I guess if you want a bunch 
of them, you need to go direct to the manufacturer.

Most of the newer parts are moving to ball-grid and no lead packages.

Jon
Jon

On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 8:43:30 PM UTC-4, Jon Elson wrote:
> Rick C wrote:
> 
> > I might be working on a smallish design shortly and I'm picking an FPGA. 
> > I don't have much in the way of requirments yet, but I'd like to have at
> > least 2000 LUTs, 39 I/Os or more, but most importantly a board layout
> > friendly package.  That means no BGAs and no CSPs.  The board features are
> > just too small with those.
> > 
> > This design is offloading some functionality from an MCU that can easily
> > be done, but it seems FPGAs are treated as hardware including the code to
> > program them with.  So a few critical functions might be done this way
> > including a PID controller.
> > 
> > I'm a fan of Lattice because of their smaller parts.  The various lines
> > don't have much in QFP or QFN packages though other than the iCE40 line. 
> > They have three Ultra parts from 1, 2 and 3.5 kLUTs and the Ultra Plus 5
> > kLUT part, all in a 48 pin QFP.
> > 
> > There is a 4.3 kLUT XO3D in a 72 pin QFN package and the XO2 device is
> > available in a couple of different packages.  But they are pricey at $10
> > and up.
> > 
> > Any devices from other makers that are similar to these in low hassle
> > packages?
> > 
> Xilinx has the XC3S50A (Spartan 3) in 100 and 144-pin packages for $10,
> and the Spartan 3AN with non-voltaile configuration memory for about $13 
> each.  Digi-Key does not give volume discounts, I guess if you want a bunch 
> of them, you need to go direct to the manufacturer.
> 
> Most of the newer parts are moving to ball-grid and no lead packages.

Spartan 3's are almost as old as I am and I would never design them in.  Like fine wine, as FPGAs mature their price increases.  $10 is already a hard pill to swallow.  I'd hate to see how much it is going forward.  

But thanks for the suggestion.  

-- 

  Rick C.

  -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
  -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 22/08/2020 06:01, Rick C wrote:
> I might be working on a smallish design shortly and I'm picking an FPGA.  I don't have much in the way of requirments yet, but I'd like to have at least 2000 LUTs, 39 I/Os or more, but most importantly a board layout friendly package.  That means no BGAs and no CSPs.  The board features are just too small with those.
> 
> This design is offloading some functionality from an MCU that can easily be done, but it seems FPGAs are treated as hardware including the code to program them with.  So a few critical functions might be done this way including a PID controller.
> 
> I'm a fan of Lattice because of their smaller parts.  The various lines don't have much in QFP or QFN packages though other than the iCE40 line.  They have three Ultra parts from 1, 2 and 3.5 kLUTs and the Ultra Plus 5 kLUT part, all in a 48 pin QFP.
> 
> There is a 4.3 kLUT XO3D in a 72 pin QFN package and the XO2 device is available in a couple of different packages.  But they are pricey at $10 and up.
> 
> Any devices from other makers that are similar to these in low hassle packages?
> 
As mentioned a few times in the past I would recommend you look at the 
many FPGA modules available. These are small daughter boards with modern 
FPGA's, oscillators, supply chips and sometimes memory on a small PCB 
friendly board. Using one of these modules can not only simplify your 
PCB but perhaps more importantly you don't have to compromise on the 
FPGA or the development tools! I can't overstress the importance of 
having access to good development tools, in most cases building the PCB 
is just minor step in the whole development process.

For my projects I used the Enterpoint DIL40 modules which also included 
5volt line drivers. Unfortunately they now ceased trading but there are 
still plenty of others around, here are a few of my bookmarked links:

https://tinyfpga.com/
https://shop.trenz-electronic.de/en/TE0722-02-DIPFORTy1-Soft-Propeller-with-Xilinx-Zynq-7010-and-16-MByte-Flash
https://store.digilentinc.com/cmod-a7-breadboardable-artix-7-fpga-module/
https://alchitry.com/collections/all/products/alchitry-au-fpga-development-board
https://www2.hdl.co.jp/en/xilinx-series1/spartan-6/xcm-019y-ql.html
https://www.aloriumtech.com/sno-fpga-module/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIz_Tsn6zM6gIVRe7tCh2jbgEmEAMYAyAAEgJrQ_D_BwE
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32942562665.html
https://numato.com/
https://www2.hdl.co.jp/en/plink/xp68-05.html

and many more...

Good luck,

Hans
www.ht-lab.com

On 23/08/2020 01:27, Rick C wrote:
> On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 8:15:55 AM UTC-4, Michael Kellett wrote:
>> On 22/08/2020 06:01, Rick C wrote:
>>> I might be working on a smallish design shortly and I'm picking an FPGA.  I don't have much in the way of requirments yet, but I'd like to have at least 2000 LUTs, 39 I/Os or more, but most importantly a board layout friendly package.  That means no BGAs and no CSPs.  The board features are just too small with those.
>>>
>>> This design is offloading some functionality from an MCU that can easily be done, but it seems FPGAs are treated as hardware including the code to program them with.  So a few critical functions might be done this way including a PID controller.
>>>
>>> I'm a fan of Lattice because of their smaller parts.  The various lines don't have much in QFP or QFN packages though other than the iCE40 line.  They have three Ultra parts from 1, 2 and 3.5 kLUTs and the Ultra Plus 5 kLUT part, all in a 48 pin QFP.
>>>
>>> There is a 4.3 kLUT XO3D in a 72 pin QFN package and the XO2 device is available in a couple of different packages.  But they are pricey at $10 and up.
>>>
>>> Any devices from other makers that are similar to these in low hassle packages?
>>>
>> I share your interest in more rational packages  - they are few and far
>> between.
>>
>> Mouser are listing stock of Gowin 4608 LE size parts in 100 pin LQFP and
>> 88 pin QFN.
>> They have the 8k LUT part in 88 pin QFN.
>> Prices are not that keen - I'd hoped for better.
>> Of course there is a very real danger that you'll swap one hassle for
>> another with Gowin.
>> The parts look remarkably like Lattice XP2.
>>
>> I'd be be really obliged if you had a go with these and published your
>> experiences !
>>
>> If I get the time I might have a go myself but it's always so hard to
>> find a project that's worth doing but where you feel willing to take a
>> risk of a key  part turning out 100% useless.
>>
>> MK
> 
> Yeah, Gowin might be a tough sell on this project.  It's about being able to build a lot of devices quickly if needed.  Maybe I should reach out to their sales guy.  He was happy to discuss product with me before.  They aren't just focusing on large volume customers like most of the Chinese companies... well, most of the FPGA vendors for that matter.
> 
> Have you checked Edge for pricing?  They are a bit better than Mouser.
> 
> edgeelectronics.com
> 
> Looks like Digikey is carrying Efinix.  The only non-BGA package is the monstrous QFP144.  There's another potentially viable Chinese FPGA company, but I can't recall the name.  Not available through distribution though.  Yet another one has nearly zero presence that isn't in Chinese.
> 
Are Edge any good ? Their website is very hard to navigate and they list 
lots of parts with no stock but keen prices.
For example they list the GW1N-9 144 pin only at just over $5, Mouser 
have stock of the 88 pin QFN part but want £16 for 1 or about £12 for 100.
At $5 the Gowin part is well worth considering (for me) - 8k LUTs and 
8Mbyte on chip SDRAM in a package I can easily use. At £16 its not that 
attractive.

I notice that Trenz will sell me a board with the GW1N-9 on it for about
$30 (for one) and about $17 for 1k - which makes the $5 for the chip 
look closer to the mark.

MK

HT-Lab <hans64@htminuslab.com> wrote:
> As mentioned a few times in the past I would recommend you look at the 
> many FPGA modules available. These are small daughter boards with modern 
> FPGA's, oscillators, supply chips and sometimes memory on a small PCB 
> friendly board. Using one of these modules can not only simplify your 
> PCB but perhaps more importantly you don't have to compromise on the 
> FPGA or the development tools! I can't overstress the importance of 
> having access to good development tools, in most cases building the PCB 
> is just minor step in the whole development process.

Are those things actually available in volume?  When I used one vendor, it
appeared they were essentially building them on demand.  You buy the last
one in stock and suddenly the lead time goes up to 12 weeks (which slipped
to 16 weeks).  And once they've built them they don't have many before they
go out of stock again.

I can't imagine how it would go if I had an urgent need for 10,000.

Theo

On Monday, August 24, 2020 at 4:25:15 AM UTC-4, HT-Lab wrote:
> On 22/08/2020 06:01, Rick C wrote:
> > I might be working on a smallish design shortly and I'm picking an FPGA.  I don't have much in the way of requirments yet, but I'd like to have at least 2000 LUTs, 39 I/Os or more, but most importantly a board layout friendly package.  That means no BGAs and no CSPs.  The board features are just too small with those.
> > 
> > This design is offloading some functionality from an MCU that can easily be done, but it seems FPGAs are treated as hardware including the code to program them with.  So a few critical functions might be done this way including a PID controller.
> > 
> > I'm a fan of Lattice because of their smaller parts.  The various lines don't have much in QFP or QFN packages though other than the iCE40 line.  They have three Ultra parts from 1, 2 and 3.5 kLUTs and the Ultra Plus 5 kLUT part, all in a 48 pin QFP.
> > 
> > There is a 4.3 kLUT XO3D in a 72 pin QFN package and the XO2 device is available in a couple of different packages.  But they are pricey at $10 and up.
> > 
> > Any devices from other makers that are similar to these in low hassle packages?
> > 
> As mentioned a few times in the past I would recommend you look at the 
> many FPGA modules available. These are small daughter boards with modern 
> FPGA's, oscillators, supply chips and sometimes memory on a small PCB 
> friendly board. Using one of these modules can not only simplify your 
> PCB but perhaps more importantly you don't have to compromise on the 
> FPGA or the development tools! I can't overstress the importance of 
> having access to good development tools, in most cases building the PCB 
> is just minor step in the whole development process.
> 
> For my projects I used the Enterpoint DIL40 modules which also included 
> 5volt line drivers. Unfortunately they now ceased trading but there are 
> still plenty of others around, here are a few of my bookmarked links:
> 
> https://tinyfpga.com/
> https://shop.trenz-electronic.de/en/TE0722-02-DIPFORTy1-Soft-Propeller-with-Xilinx-Zynq-7010-and-16-MByte-Flash
> https://store.digilentinc.com/cmod-a7-breadboardable-artix-7-fpga-module/
> https://alchitry.com/collections/all/products/alchitry-au-fpga-development-board
> https://www2.hdl.co.jp/en/xilinx-series1/spartan-6/xcm-019y-ql.html
> https://www.aloriumtech.com/sno-fpga-module/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIz_Tsn6zM6gIVRe7tCh2jbgEmEAMYAyAAEgJrQ_D_BwE
> https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32942562665.html
> https://numato.com/
> https://www2.hdl.co.jp/en/plink/xp68-05.html
> 
> and many more...
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> Hans
> www.ht-lab.com

I appreciate the suggestion.  

I don't recall recommendations for modules, but this is for a product that will be made in large quantities and supply is an issue.  While the board design rules may not be an issue in production quantities (or it may depending on sources available at the time) but it is an issue for prototyping for sure.  

The real issue is that this is not a severe limitation.  I think I've mentioned the several options available from Lattice Semi in QFN 32 to 84 or QFP100.  The prices range from $2 for the small parts to $10 for the larger ones.  

-- 

  Rick C.

  -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
  -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Monday, August 24, 2020 at 11:52:26 AM UTC-4, Theo wrote:
> HT-Lab <hans64@htminuslab.com> wrote:
> > As mentioned a few times in the past I would recommend you look at the 
> > many FPGA modules available. These are small daughter boards with modern 
> > FPGA's, oscillators, supply chips and sometimes memory on a small PCB 
> > friendly board. Using one of these modules can not only simplify your 
> > PCB but perhaps more importantly you don't have to compromise on the 
> > FPGA or the development tools! I can't overstress the importance of 
> > having access to good development tools, in most cases building the PCB 
> > is just minor step in the whole development process.
> 
> Are those things actually available in volume?  When I used one vendor, it
> appeared they were essentially building them on demand.  You buy the last
> one in stock and suddenly the lead time goes up to 12 weeks (which slipped
> to 16 weeks).  And once they've built them they don't have many before they
> go out of stock again.
> 
> I can't imagine how it would go if I had an urgent need for 10,000.

No one builds FPGAs to order.  More likely is they have volume customers who order parts on a schedule in 1000's.  If they don't, they won't be in business long.  The distributor carries inventory they think they can sell to you and I.  When they run out they have to wait for the next run and their order is tacked on.  

It would be nice if the manufacturer carries inventory.  TI does that a lot and it makes it easy to use your favorite distributor.  I don't know what parts these new FPGA companies are doing in that regard. 

You need to consider the possibility of these companies going under.  If Lattice goes under they will certainly be bought and the products will still be available.  If Gowin or Efinix go under, who's going to pick them up? 

-- 

  Rick C.

  +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
  +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209