VIRTEX v Spartan 3

Jim,


-snip-
> 
>  Could you give us 1H 2004 volumes, and present lead times, for S3
> devices ?
>  As a designer, a valid question is: Has Xilinx 'caught up' enough, so 
> that a design could use these devices, and not have a supply problem ?
> 
> -jg

No, I can not do that Jim.  To get supply information, you must contact 
your distributor.  To get how many we have, I have to wait for a press 
release (confidential and restricted information can not be released on 
this newsgroup)just like you do.

I am told that distributors do have part/package combinations in stock 
on the shelf.  I am also told that some devices are still in short 
supply.  We are fab'ing as many wafers as we possibly can to catch up 
(projecting ahead), but demand is ramping faster.

To that end, and by your definition, perhaps we have not caught up on 
some devices (glass is half empty), but we are doing the best we can and 
making a lot of progress (glass is half full).

No one is going to post on this newsgroup that their part was on the 
shelf when they ordered it ('dog bites man' is not news).  But if the 
part is not on the shelf, then we hear all about it in this forum ('man 
bites dog' is news).

I advise anyone who is designing (regardless of the part or family) to 
work closely with your distributor, (as anyone would who buys in the 
quantities that we are seeing for S3).


Austin

PS:  I did not intend to put "words in your mouth".  Poetic license 
#23210098 issued 5/14/53

"Austin Lesea" <austin@xilinx.com> wrote in message
news:cbc6gt$cn31@cliff.xsj.xilinx.com...
>
> I advise anyone who is designing (regardless of the part or family) to
> work closely with your distributor, (as anyone would who buys in the
> quantities that we are seeing for S3).
>
Very good advice Austin. To be fair to Xilinx, our Distie, knowing our
volumes and lead time requirements, advised us to steer clear of S3 for a
while. From some of the posts I read on here, this appears to have been the
correct thing to do for my company. (Although, as you say Austin, the people
who got their parts don't post here to complain!)
When I try to see things from Xilinx's point of view, of course they're
gonna supply their biggest customers first, and keep pushing the product
with as much hype as possible to these main guys, fair enough. Also, don't
forget that if it weren't for the big guys buying loads of parts, the small
guys wouldn't get any of these parts _ever_. It's just that the marketing
spiel eventually becomes a little frustrating!
Maybe what we need is not only price vs. volume data, but lead-time vs.
volume too!
Finally, you can be sure people are impressed with the product, Austin.
No-one would complain about lead-time if the chips were a pile of poo.
Cheers, Syms.

"Austin Lesea" <austin@xilinx.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:cb9t2d$cm02@cliff.xsj.xilinx.com...
> Symon,
>
> Very funny.
>
> So we are unbelievably successful with S3.  Is that our fault that we
> somehow did not figure that they would be instantly shipped once they
> got packaged?
>
> Triple whammy: 1) great part 2) great price 3)dot.com ending.
>
> Did you bother to read the S3 press release?  500K S3's in 2003?
>
> That is one helluva lot of FPGAs.....
>
> Some would have you beleive that 90nm was "too risky" and "had
> availability issues" .... that is until they have their 90nm offering!
>
> Never even considered lo-K for S3 (too much $$$ for too little benefit).
>
> Lo-K was a Virtex II Pro 'issue' that we had to correct by process
> tweaks and design.  Let's face it, if we can still meet all of the
> specifications without lo-K, why bother with the cost and reliability
> issues?
>
> Austin

Austinn,

It seems to me that your a beating about the bush about the availability of
spartan-3 chips.

The thing is that Xilinx was very quick to announce the SP3 family very
early, before even thinking
seriously/or knowing about when they could actually be delivered (even in
sample quantity).
Add to that some problems about the design of IO's cells to get them 3.3V
tolerant and I think also
some uncertaintay about what functions should actually finally go into the
chips - caused extra delay
from protoypes to tested sample/volume production. Another thing is that all
the software people
involved in writing ISE and the EDK kits had to keep up to deliver the SW in
time for the release of the chips

It has given Xilinx and SP3 a somewhat bad reputation in the electronics
business and propably
also had the effect that a lot of designs haven't been done with SP3 (I know
of a few at my job).

Guess it's always a balance when to announce a new family. Too early gives a
bad reputation and to late,
causes the loss of design-in's. I'd say in this case it was announced 6
months too early.
Don't know how it's going to go with the virtex-4 family, but I suspect we
have the same story here,
but I hope the delay won't bee as large as for SP3, as the 80 ns process is
more mature and so are
fx. the design of IO blocks with it ;-)

Thanks anyway for designing good FPGA's. Keep up the good work !

Finn Nielsen
Denmark

Finn,

I take issue with the unsupported spin by competitors accusing us of 
introducing a product "too early."

First of all, very few products get introduced totally problem free. 
Yes, we have had an errata sheet with a new product, but that is a 
service, not something to be ashamed of.  In fact, compared to others in 
this industry, our errata sheet is at least less than a couple of pages, 
and most often a single sheet.  Others have in excess of 20 or more 
known bugs, with many different mask revisions, which is hell to keep 
track of.  So are we too early when we have a few errata, but we do not 
force a customer to live through three mask revisions?  That to me is 
too early:  announcing a product that is too buggy, and isn't ready. 
What does it matter that it is "on the shelf?"

Secondly, there has been incredible unexpected business in Spartan 3. 
So, did we not have enough supply?  Yes.  Did we intentionally introduce 
it too early so we would make people unhappy?  No.

Third, I can say nothing about the software (not my area), so no defense 
offered here.  I will let them offer one, or an apology, whichever is 
appropriate.

Fourth, and lastly, Virtex 4 was announced today being shipped to early 
access customers.  That means it is real.  Now comes the fun part, 
making lots more, and sampling them.  I will not disagree that the 
sampling phase will be a real challenge, but who else has a triple oxide 
500 MHz FPGA with IBM Power PC's, 10 Gbs transceivers, FIFO BRAM, 48bit 
DSP with MAC...... no one.  It isn't called the "bleeding edge" for nothing.

But if you are not there (on the edge of the technology juggernaut), you 
are nowhere.


Austin

Austin Lesea wrote:
> 
> I am told that distributors do have part/package combinations in stock
> on the shelf.  I am also told that some devices are still in short
> supply.  We are fab'ing as many wafers as we possibly can to catch up
> (projecting ahead), but demand is ramping faster.

I asked for an update on the XC3S400-4FG456C and was told 12 weeks
(that's three months, right?) or "open order entry" for the ES version. 
They did not say they had had even the ES parts on the shelf.  Can you
give me a heads up on who might have stock on this part?  

Also, what exactly is the difference between the production and ES parts
at this point?  I believe the 3S400 parts are claimed to be in
"production" for many months now.  Where do the ES parts come from at
this late stage? 



> PS:  I did not intend to put "words in your mouth".  Poetic license
> #23210098 issued 5/14/53

When replying to my posts, please keep your poetic license in your
pocket.  This is prose, not poetry.  :) 

-- 

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

Rick,

---snip----

 > I asked for an update on the XC3S400-4FG456C and was told 12 weeks
> (that's three months, right?) or "open order entry" for the ES version. 
> They did not say they had had even the ES parts on the shelf.  Can you
> give me a heads up on who might have stock on this part?

Sorry, I suspect that S3 ES parts are available only through Xilinx, 
which means that we have stock, and are awaiting a disti order.  Only 
those disti's that want to (we can not force them) will buy ES material, 
as they do not want to be "stuck" with ES stock (as then they have to 
write it).

> Also, what exactly is the difference between the production and ES parts
> at this point?

Basically none.  After the first masks of the first family members, 
errata are fixed, and the second or third masks made are just awaiting 
the HTOL (high temperature operating life), ESD, and other reliability 
tests before they can be officially called production.  Same silicon, 
more paper pedigree.  Again, contact you disti and FAE for exact details 
on any specific part.  One good way is to request the errata sheet for 
the two parts.  If there is no errata sheet for a part, it has no 
problems, and that usually means it is the second mask made in the 
family, as the first one's errata are fixed (if any).

> I believe the 3S400 parts are claimed to be in
> "production" for many months now.  Where do the ES parts come from at
> this late stage? 

As soon as we have production, no one wants the ES anymore.  Sometimes 
we have to write off a lot of ES material as it can not be sold (or 
donate it to schools and universities -- see the Xilinx University 
Program online!  Do not email me for the parts!).

http://www.xilinx.com/products/spartan3/s3boards.htm

is the $99 S3 starter kit (orderable over the web).

Austin

PS:  for anyone playing around with ancient FPGAs, give yourself a 
break, and just order the latest technology to play with.

Austin,
What sort of JTAG download cable is included in that kit? I don't recognise
it.
Ta, Syms.

"Austin Lesea" <austin@xilinx.com> wrote in message
news:cbq4cp$2kr4@cliff.xsj.xilinx.com...
> http://www.xilinx.com/products/spartan3/s3boards.htm
>
> is the $99 S3 starter kit (orderable over the web).
>
> Austin
>
> PS:  for anyone playing around with ancient FPGAs, give yourself a
> break, and just order the latest technology to play with.

Austin Lesea wrote:
> http://www.xilinx.com/products/spartan3/s3boards.htm
> 
> is the $99 S3 starter kit (orderable over the web).
> 
> Austin
> 
> PS:  for anyone playing around with ancient FPGAs, give yourself a 
> break, and just order the latest technology to play with.

  Nice system.
Can you refresh us, as it's not clear on the link above.
  IIRC, PicoBlaze is free [Xilinx hosted understood :)],
and MicroBlaze is $$ - correct ?
-jg

Symon,

Do not know.  I'll find out.

Austin

Symon wrote:
> Austin,
> What sort of JTAG download cable is included in that kit? I don't recognise
> it.
> Ta, Syms.
> 
> "Austin Lesea" <austin@xilinx.com> wrote in message
> news:cbq4cp$2kr4@cliff.xsj.xilinx.com...
> 
>>http://www.xilinx.com/products/spartan3/s3boards.htm
>>
>>is the $99 S3 starter kit (orderable over the web).
>>
>>Austin
>>
>>PS:  for anyone playing around with ancient FPGAs, give yourself a
>>break, and just order the latest technology to play with.
> 
> 
>