On 7/30/2013 5:11 PM, Theo Markettos wrote:> already5chosen@yahoo.com wrote: >> If "nice" = 100 pin QFP, then yes, except for ancient Cyclone-I, Altera >> does not have anything nice. >> >> But if 144 pin QFP is also o.k. then there are relatively modern Cyclone >> III devices. Voltage and the rest is more or less the same as Xilinx. > > There's some Cyclone IVs in 144ish QFP too.I would love to use a 144 pin QFP, but they don't fit on the board. It is a very narrow daughtercard, only 0.85" wide and the 144 QFP is 0.86" wide without counting the pad over hang. A 17x17mm 256 BGA is the best of the rest so far. It has a 1 mm pitch although I haven't looked at what it takes to get vias between the balls. I expect I will need to be willing to push below the comfort zone of 6/6 mil space/trace and maybe below 10 mil drill. One nice thing about the 256 BGA is that I only need to reach the power and ground pins and the outer ring or two to get my 62 I/Os. I can ignore the rest of the balls. -- Rick
Lattice Announces EOL for XP and EC/P Product Lines
Started by ●July 30, 2013
Reply by ●July 30, 20132013-07-30
Reply by ●July 30, 20132013-07-30
On 7/30/2013 3:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:> rickman wrote: > > >> The Xilinx parts are interesting. Spartan 3 devices come in 100 QFPs >> and have enough of the "right stuff" inside including multipliers which >> I can use. But that external flash needs a spot on the board and I have >> to use a 1.2 volt regulator for the core. The XP parts use an internal >> regulator and run from 3.3 volts only. Xilinx has a rep for keeping >> parts in production for a long, long time, but the S3 line came out in >> 2005, same as the XP line. Spartan 6 parts give a *lot* more >> functionality, but I'd have to use a 256 pin 1.0 mm BGA *and* external >> flash *and* the 1.2 volt supply *and* they are twice the price. Maybe >> I'll talk to the disties. Maybe they can do something about the price >> at least. >> > Spartan 3AN has internal flash. I don't recall if there is a 100-pin > version, I am using the 144-pin version in a couple products. > I refuse to go to BGAs until there are no leaded parts remaining > available.No S3AN in 100 pin QFP, this may be because it is a dual die configuration or more likely they just don't expect to sell a lot of this size. I haven't bothered to check the price either. They do have a FTG256 which might do the job. I expect I can find the space for a very small 8 pin flash part if I go QFN. Again, I need to dig more. I've just started looking... Actually my main concern with the external flash is the whole JTAG programming at the factory and/or lab thing, but there are likely many ways to deal with that including having them programmed before assembly. It is just that I've been using these Flash FPGAs for some time now and I'm very used to them. -- Rick
Reply by ●July 30, 20132013-07-30
On 7/30/2013 6:02 PM, Jon Elson wrote:> GaborSzakacs wrote: > > >> I'm pretty sure that the 144-pin package is the smallest with flash. >> In any case it's not a big win over an external SPI flash part. The >> difference in footprint between 100 TQFP and 144 TQFP is more than >> the flash footprint. Not to mention there's a price premium for that >> multi-die package. >> > Right, unless I have a pretty strong reason to use the 3AN, I use > the Spartan 3, and the SST flash chips, which are insanely cheap. > I wrote my own programmer code for those. Spartan 2E needed some > interface fooling around to command the memory to start dumping at > location zero, but the 3A knows how to do it by setting some config > pins.This is the stuff I'm concerned about with the external flash. But it is just a mater of figuring out how to do it and then doing that... Too bad I don't have space for an MCU. The design could use one, but if it happens it will be *inside* the FPGA. Just no board space at all. In fact, I'm skipping Altera for the moment and skipping over to MicroSemi and Cypress to see if their combination CPU/Logic devices might do the job well and let me eliminate the stereo CODEC to (another part that could go obsolete at any time). I seem to recall that the Cypress part might be just the ticket but the MicroSemi part runs some $50 at the low point. The current Lattice part is running under $10. Although, if the CODEC could be absorbed inside an MCU, there is some board space at that point, about 6.5mm sq. But how many MCUs can do 16 bit, CD quality audio on two channels? Maybe Analog Devices, but their MCU parts don't give me confidence in their longevity. It also has to read the external flash and dump it into the FPGA so those tiny audio DSPs are out. -- Rick
Reply by ●July 30, 20132013-07-30
On Wednesday, July 31, 2013 12:40:20 AM UTC+2, rickman wrote:> On 7/30/2013 5:11 PM, Theo Markettos wrote: > > > already5chosen@yahoo.com wrote: > > >> If "nice" = 100 pin QFP, then yes, except for ancient Cyclone-I, Altera > > >> does not have anything nice. > > >> > > >> But if 144 pin QFP is also o.k. then there are relatively modern Cyclone > > >> III devices. Voltage and the rest is more or less the same as Xilinx. > > > > > > There's some Cyclone IVs in 144ish QFP too. > > > > I would love to use a 144 pin QFP, but they don't fit on the board. It > > is a very narrow daughtercard, only 0.85" wide and the 144 QFP is 0.86" > > wide without counting the pad over hang. A 17x17mm 256 BGA is the best > > of the rest so far. It has a 1 mm pitch although I haven't looked at > > what it takes to get vias between the balls. I expect I will need to be > > willing to push below the comfort zone of 6/6 mil space/trace and maybe > > below 10 mil drill. >http://bmc.bu.edu/bmc/asd/tester/xapp157.pdf says 6/6 and 12mil drill is doable -Lasse
Reply by ●July 30, 20132013-07-30
> In fact, I'm skipping Altera for the momentIf you have some reasonable time that you can bridge with your LTB parts, I think you should really contact your local Altera FAE to see if he has some news for you. Personally, I like Quartus the most by far when comparing it with the software from the other vendors (just look at SignalTap, for example). (I have no Vivado experience, however...) Regards, Thomas www.entner-electronics.com
Reply by ●July 30, 20132013-07-30
On 7/30/2013 11:37 AM, rickman wrote:> Spartan 6 parts give a *lot* more functionality, but I'd have to use > a 256 pin 1.0 mm BGA *and* external flash *and* the 1.2 volt supply > *and* they are twice the price. Maybe I'll talk to the disties. > Maybe they can do something about the price at least.The smaller Spartan 6 parts do come in a 144 pin TQFP package. Too small? Rob.
Reply by ●July 30, 20132013-07-30
rickman wrote:> No S3AN in 100 pin QFP, this may be because it is a dual die > configuration or more likely they just don't expect to sell a lot of > this size. I haven't bothered to check the price either. They do have > a FTG256 which might do the job. I expect I can find the space for a > very small 8 pin flash part if I go QFN. Again, I need to dig more. > I've just started looking... >The smallest Spartan 3A is under $10, the 3AN is about $15.> Actually my main concern with the external flash is the whole JTAG > programming at the factory and/or lab thing, but there are likely many > ways to deal with that including having them programmed before assembly. > It is just that I've been using these Flash FPGAs for some time now > and I'm very used to them. >The 3AN can be programmed by JTAG, the SST serial EPROM I use on the 3A is not JTAG, although a flexible programmer or tester could easily be "taught" the protocol. I chose this device so I could have field-replaceable firmware. I had to make an SO-8 to DIP converter board though, as the SST chip is only available in a couple SMT packages. Jon
Reply by ●July 30, 20132013-07-30
On 7/30/2013 9:03 PM, Rob Doyle wrote:> On 7/30/2013 11:37 AM, rickman wrote: >> Spartan 6 parts give a *lot* more functionality, but I'd have to use >> a 256 pin 1.0 mm BGA *and* external flash *and* the 1.2 volt supply >> *and* they are twice the price. Maybe I'll talk to the disties. >> Maybe they can do something about the price at least. > > The smaller Spartan 6 parts do come in a 144 pin TQFP package. Too small? > > Rob.Apparently the 144 TQ package is too big (physically). And once you look at a 256-ball 1mm BGA you could find any number of devices including those from Lattice (XP2?). For internals, the smallest Spartan 6 is about the size of the original XP part he was using. As to price, we never pay anything near list for Xilinx parts, but we don't get the same steep discount on Spartan 6 as we do on other series. -- Gabor
Reply by ●July 31, 20132013-07-31
On 7/30/2013 7:44 PM, langwadt@fonz.dk wrote:> On Wednesday, July 31, 2013 12:40:20 AM UTC+2, rickman wrote: >> On 7/30/2013 5:11 PM, Theo Markettos wrote: >> >>> already5chosen@yahoo.com wrote: >> >>>> If "nice" = 100 pin QFP, then yes, except for ancient Cyclone-I, Altera >> >>>> does not have anything nice. >> >>>> >> >>>> But if 144 pin QFP is also o.k. then there are relatively modern Cyclone >> >>>> III devices. Voltage and the rest is more or less the same as Xilinx. >> >>> >> >>> There's some Cyclone IVs in 144ish QFP too. >> >> >> >> I would love to use a 144 pin QFP, but they don't fit on the board. It >> >> is a very narrow daughtercard, only 0.85" wide and the 144 QFP is 0.86" >> >> wide without counting the pad over hang. A 17x17mm 256 BGA is the best >> >> of the rest so far. It has a 1 mm pitch although I haven't looked at >> >> what it takes to get vias between the balls. I expect I will need to be >> >> willing to push below the comfort zone of 6/6 mil space/trace and maybe >> >> below 10 mil drill. >> > > http://bmc.bu.edu/bmc/asd/tester/xapp157.pdf > > says 6/6 and 12mil drill is doable > > > -LasseThanks for the link, that saved me a little bother. But I'll still need to run through the calcs myself. A quick check says this works. Still, I'm not crazy about using a 256 ball part when I only need 62 I/O... lol Better than no choice at all. -- Rick
Reply by ●July 31, 20132013-07-31
On 7/30/2013 9:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:> rickman wrote: > > >> No S3AN in 100 pin QFP, this may be because it is a dual die >> configuration or more likely they just don't expect to sell a lot of >> this size. I haven't bothered to check the price either. They do have >> a FTG256 which might do the job. I expect I can find the space for a >> very small 8 pin flash part if I go QFN. Again, I need to dig more. >> I've just started looking... >> > The smallest Spartan 3A is under $10, the 3AN is about $15. > >> Actually my main concern with the external flash is the whole JTAG >> programming at the factory and/or lab thing, but there are likely many >> ways to deal with that including having them programmed before assembly. >> It is just that I've been using these Flash FPGAs for some time now >> and I'm very used to them. >> > The 3AN can be programmed by JTAG, the SST serial EPROM I use on > the 3A is not JTAG, although a flexible programmer or tester > could easily be "taught" the protocol. I chose this device > so I could have field-replaceable firmware. I had to make an > SO-8 to DIP converter board though, as the SST chip is only > available in a couple SMT packages.Yeah, I am supposed to provide JTAG programmability through the equipment this daughtercard is plugged into. That is, I provide the JTAG port, it is up to them to do the software to program it. That is one of my concerns with an external seral prom. May not be easy to do in an 8 pin package... But if they can learn the protocol, maybe that would work too. We'll see. After 5 years we still have not required this functionality. But I'll be pushing for increased capability in the new version to allow it to be sold into new areas. So remote updates may be more important then. -- Rick
