Intel (Altera) announces Cyclone-10

On 2/17/2017 7:19 AM, already5chosen@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 12:29:39 PM UTC+2, rickman wrote:
>> On 2/17/2017 5:21 AM, already5chosen@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 10:16:54 PM UTC+2, thomas....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> It looks like Intel has learned to count from Microsoft.  The previous
>>>>>>> generation of Cyclone was Cyclone-5.
>>>>
>>>> I think the numbering is the least concern with this "new" family (no surprise, as there is already Max 10, Arria 10 and Stratix 10 - with similar jumps).
>>>>
>>>> However, it is pretty obvious that:
>>>> Cyclone 10 LP = Cyclone III / IV E
>>>
>>> So, if 10LP is renamed IV E, which in turn is renamed III, does it follow that 10LP is manufactured on TSMC 60 nm processs ?
>>>
>>>> Cyclone 10 GX = Arria 10 GX
>>>
>>> Including the two smallest ones?
>>> Hopefully, you are too pessimistic about it.
>>> If 10CX085 and 10CX105 are in reality just 10AX027 with majority of die fused off then its ratio of performance to static power consumption will be quit bad.
>>> It happened to smaller members of Arria-II family and it was not nice.
>>
>> I wonder how long it will be before Altera transitions over to Intel
>> fabs and/or if that will be an improvement or not.
>
> According to my understanding, official line is the same as before acquisition:
> only high end (Stratix 10) will be manufactured at Intel's fabs. The rest remains on TSMC.
> But I didn't follow the news too closely.
>
>>
>> It's interesting to me that the low end of the Cyclone 10 LP is just 6
>> kLUTs.  That's my territory.
>
> I can not judge for sure, but it seems to me that "your territory" is MAX-10.

I didn't realize MAX10 had ADC on chip as well as multipliers and 
memory.  That's interesting.  I can bring in lowish resolution signals 
and do signal processing on them.  16 bit ADC/DAC would be nicer.  They 
still give me packaging heartburn.  Even in these small parts they 
emphasize high I/O counts and fine pitch packages, *very* fine pitch.

-- 

Rick C

On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 5:25:47 PM UTC+2, thomas....@gmail.com wrote:
> > 
> > So, if 10LP is renamed IV E, which in turn is renamed III, does it follow that 10LP is manufactured on TSMC 60 nm processs ? 
> 
> This is indeed the case, it is even somewhere on their homepage, 

Yes, it's here now.
https://www.altera.com/products/fpga/cyclone-series/cyclone-10/cyclone-10-lp/overview.html

I don't think it was here 4-5 days ago, when I first heard about Cyclone-10.
But may be I just didn't pay attention.

> google for Cyclone 10 and 60nm... (Maybe they use a different flavour of 60nm process with better characteristics, but I do not really think so. Cyclone IV was at least the shrinked from 65nm to 60nm, but this was also done for Cyclone III).

If it was really a shrink.
60nm can well be just a name for the variant of 65nm process that improved some characteristics, but not necessarily a density.

> Interestingly, on the TSMC homepage, there is no 60nm process, only 65nm and 55nm..)
> 
> > > Cyclone 10 GX = Arria 10 GX
> > 
> > Including the two smallest ones? 
> > Hopefully, you are too pessimistic about it.
> > If 10CX085 and 10CX105 are in reality just 10AX027 with majority of die fused off then its ratio of performance to static power consumption will be quit bad.
> 
> I fully agree on this. It they had a smaller die (with reduced power consumption) and Cyclone pricing, this would be a real good product... But I doubt it. Another interesting questions is if there also comes a Cyclone 10 SX with SoC?
> 
> I think this is mainly a marketing thing to have something against Spartan 7, until the real new stuff is ready.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Thomas
> 
> www.entner-electronics.com - Home of EEBlaster and JPEG Codec

thomas.entner99@gmail.com writes:

>> >> It looks like Intel has learned to count from Microsoft.  The previous
>> >> generation of Cyclone was Cyclone-5.
>
> I think the numbering is the least concern with this "new" family (no
> surprise, as there is already Max 10, Arria 10 and Stratix 10 - with
> similar jumps).
>
> However, it is pretty obvious that:
> Cyclone 10 LP = Cyclone III / IV E
> Cyclone 10 GX = Arria 10 GX
>
> (Such a strategy has long tradition for Altera, look at FLEX10K/ACEX1K, Cyclone III/IV E, MAX II/V...)
>
> It is mainly a marketing / pricing move, which of course is OK if
> there is pricing benefit for the customer. But I always found the way
> it was communicated pretty misleading... (Very dishonest. Fake news.)
> (I had no contact to an Altera/Intel FAE recently - not sure how they
> communicate this.)
>
> However, especially Arria 10 GX for Cyclone pricing could be a real deal. (Great deal. So wonderful.)

Do you have any information that the Cyclone 10 GX will actually replace
the Arria 10 GX?

I would expect the Cyclone 10 GX to replace the Cyclone V GX. The
Cyclone 10 GX transceivers are slower than the current Arria 10
transceivers according to link posted earlier.

I think the 10 was introduced as this was the 10th generation FPGA from
Altera. I can remember LSI Logic did a similar name change with their
ASIC's when the G10 family was introduced.


//Petter

-- 
.sig removed by request. 

> Do you have any information that the Cyclone 10 GX will actually replace
> the Arria 10 GX?
> 
> I would expect the Cyclone 10 GX to replace the Cyclone V GX. 

Please note that I do not "have information", I just look at the datasheet and outline the obvious...

I do not think that the new family will replace anything, all the families will coexist for quite some time. Of course new projects will mostly use newer families... (I think one of the reasons for the new family is to allow Altera to make more aggressive pricing for new projects and keep the pricing high for the "old" families, esp. Arria 10, that are already used in products)

It would still be interesting to hear if there is maybe some subtle difference, e.g. in power consumption. Maybe someone has already access to an power estimator of Cyclone 10 GX to compare with Arria 10 (esp. the smallest parts of Cyclone 10 GX)?

Regards,

Thomas