Verilog Editor.

Check out the Zeus Editor.   www.zeusedit.com


Is is very lost cost and now supports Verilog files with nice code 
folding! (begin/end  case/endcase)

-Eli

On a sunny day (Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:28:26 -0500) it happened Eli Hughes
<emh203@psu.edu> wrote in <dkodda$1f9c$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>:

>Check out the Zeus Editor.   www.zeusedit.com
>
>
>Is is very lost cost and now supports Verilog files with nice code 
>folding! (begin/end  case/endcase)
>
>-Eli

<rant>
I do not get this, I have written perhaps a million or more lines of C code,
and quite some lines of verilog code now, and I use 'joe' editor in Linux.
It has NO special mode for C, no 'syntax coloring', none of these things,
ident: yes.
It takes .0000Xms to start and has wordstar like keys (for the old CP/M guys),
Even emacs takes ages to start compared to it. 
In my_view(C) if you cannot see '{' and '}' or align it, or 'wire', 
or 'module' or ANY language specific word, then you are not suited
as programmer.
Now SOME programmers in C leave out all spaces: var=a+2/4*36; 
Do not do that, write as a natural language, use separate lines for complicated
things, we do not have to worry about space: memory is cheaper these days.
(in the beginning when programming we even combined bits in an integer in asm,
no we use 64 bits as flag...)
I do NOT want to start a [verilog] editor war, just point out ways to less suffering.
</rant>

Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:28:26 -0500) it happened Eli Hughes
> <emh203@psu.edu> wrote in <dkodda$1f9c$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>:
> 
> 
>>Check out the Zeus Editor.   www.zeusedit.com
>>
>>
>>Is is very lost cost and now supports Verilog files with nice code 
>>folding! (begin/end  case/endcase)
>>
>>-Eli
> 
> 
> <rant>
> I do not get this, I have written perhaps a million or more lines of C code,
> and quite some lines of verilog code now, and I use 'joe' editor in Linux.
> It has NO special mode for C, no 'syntax coloring', none of these things,
> ident: yes.
> It takes .0000Xms to start and has wordstar like keys (for the old CP/M guys),
> Even emacs takes ages to start compared to it. 
> In my_view(C) if you cannot see '{' and '}' or align it, or 'wire', 
> or 'module' or ANY language specific word, then you are not suited
> as programmer.
> Now SOME programmers in C leave out all spaces: var=a+2/4*36; 
> Do not do that, write as a natural language, use separate lines for complicated
> things, we do not have to worry about space: memory is cheaper these days.
> (in the beginning when programming we even combined bits in an integer in asm,
> no we use 64 bits as flag...)
> I do NOT want to start a [verilog] editor war, just point out ways to less suffering.
> </rant>
> 


Tools are meant to make life easier.  Yes you can pound nails with a 
rock.  You could build a house with it and get very good at it.  But 
then again, its also really nice to have a compressor and a framing 
nailer.  Both perform the same operation, but one lets you get things 
done faster.

<quote>
In my_view(C) if you cannot see '{' and '}' or align it, or 'wire',
 > or 'module' or ANY language specific word, then you are not suited
 > as programmer.
</quote>

This is somewhat arrogant.  Yes, I can use some crappy UNIX text editor. 
  But I choose to use something to make like life a little easier. Why 
would I not want to use new tools?  My vision is bad enough. I like 
having things highlighted.  It also makes things easier for others to 
look at code that they are not familiar with.

Thats like saying that a Doctor is a a good Doctor is he Doesn't use the 
same tools from 30 years ago. Ya, they worked at the time but there are 
much better tools now that make operations easier.

-Eli

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:28:26 -0500, Eli Hughes <emh203@psu.edu> wrote:

>Check out the Zeus Editor.   www.zeusedit.com
>
>
>Is is very lost cost and now supports Verilog files with nice code 
>folding! (begin/end  case/endcase)
>
>-Eli

I use UltraEdit.  Version 11.20 opens in less than 2 seconds, can open
a project of about 120 files in ~25 seconds, supports about a zillion
languages, including Verilog, and does syntax coloring, code folding,
etc.  (I even have syntax coloring for Xilinx UCF files.)  At $39.95,
it costs the same as Zeus.  And when you report a bug, they fix it,
quickly.

Dollar for dollar it's the best editor I've ever used.  I have no
financial interest in the company; I'm just a satisfied customer.

Bob Perlman
Cambrian Design Works

I thought gVim was the editor of choice!

On a sunny day (Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:00:40 -0500) it happened Eli Hughes
<emh203@psu.edu> wrote in <dkof9p$1f9o$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>:

><quote>
>In my_view(C) if you cannot see '{' and '}' or align it, or 'wire',
> > or 'module' or ANY language specific word, then you are not suited
> > as programmer.
></quote>
>
>This is somewhat arrogant.  Yes, I can use some crappy UNIX text editor. 
>  But I choose to use something to make like life a little easier. Why 
>would I not want to use new tools?  My vision is bad enough. I like 
>having things highlighted.  It also makes things easier for others to 
>look at code that they are not familiar with.
>
>Thats like saying that a Doctor is a a good Doctor is he Doesn't use the 
>same tools from 30 years ago. Ya, they worked at the time but there are 
>much better tools now that make operations easier.
OK I respect your view, but I also respect my view and experience and that
even more ;-) So, you do not seem to get what I am hinting at :-)
Some observations:
 This syntax highlighting / coloring has nothing to do with vision sharpness,
we have even less color sensors in the eye then BW, and these need more light
too, so reading color takes more brain cycles! It has to do with the way the
neural net processes the data.
In the even older days (of editors) there were no full screen editors, and 
one worked at a line at the time while you hade a VERY clear picture in your
head of the whole source (text)!
When we get really decadent and use a MS product with very small windows with
graphics that 'pre-types' half a C++ function for you (Visual Studio), then
yes that may seem easy, especially to the beginner.
However *I* personally fuind it annoying when using these windows in windows
in windows that you constantly need to scroll even on a 19 inch monitor..
I use Linux and old fvwm (window manager)with 9 rxvt terminals and 9 virtual
screens.
Random access, HUGE characters, you'd like it!
Then use a makefile, drop that GUI.
No, I am not a GUI hater, no way, write so many GUI programs, but it needs
to be done in the right way.
GUI is handy for SOME applications, like moving modules around perhaps in
a diagram, and buttons, sliders, graphs, what not.
But not for text oriented code.
For TEXT oriented code you need (are best of with) a TEXT oriented editor,
no mouse, no, set mouse traps, get rid of these.. Fingers on the keyboard.
I admit I use cut and paste.
Use best of both worlds.
But if you CANNOT have the code picture in your head, forgat about programming.
Hey I use 'search' in my sources, no scrolling..... be a sharp shooter,
eye that ONE detail, find it, write it / fix it.
And have the big picture always in your head, else let go and do not
write until you are clear about that.

> 4. Jan Panteltje
>
> OK I respect your view, but I also respect my view and experience
> and that even more ;-)
>
> So, you do not seem to get what I am hinting at :-)

In passing I came across this thread so as the author of
the Zeus editor I though I might add my 2 cents worth.

> Some observations:
> This syntax highlighting/coloring has nothing to do with
> vision sharpness,

IMHO Syntax highlighting does make coding easier, but like so
many things, it takes some practice and it is not for everybody.

For example I personally have bad habit of transposing characters
when I type too fast. This means when I try to type this:

   true

I end up with this:

   ture

With syntax highlighting this mistake is very easy to detect,
because the word "true" is a keyword and I know it must be
blue in color.

> we have even less color sensors in the eye then BW, and these
> need more light too, so reading color takes more brain cycles!

I don't know if I'm thinking any harder, but I do know that after
years of reading syntax highlighted code, I find it very hard to
read mono colored code.

Similarly, I was one of those coders that never saw a need for
features like code folding, but now that I have been using it
for a few months, I do find there are times when it come in
handy (ie finding missing brace characters, hiding unwanted
text, copying or deleting a block of code).

> In the even older days (of editors) there were no full screen
> editors, and one worked at a line at the time while you hade a
> VERY clear picture in your head of the whole source (text)!

This hold true even today. IMHO any programmer that can create
a "clear picture" the code in their head will be more productive
than those that can't.

The fact that modern day editors display more information might
discourage some programmers from forming this view, but IMHO
this has more to do with the quality of the programmer than the
tool they are using.

> When we get really decadent and use a MS product with very small
> windows with graphics that 'pre-types' half a C++ function for
> you (Visual Studio), then yes that may seem easy, especially to
> the beginner. However *I* personally find it annoying when using
> these windows in windows in windows that you constantly need to
> scroll even on a 19 inch monitor..

I agree 100%. The Microsoft VC++ has an amazing ability of wasting
screen real-estate, forcing the programmer to code in a space the
size of a postage stamp :)

But it is unfair to think all tools are like MSVC++. Zeus definitely
does not impose these types of constraints on the user.

> Then use a makefile, drop that GUI.

Zeus, like many other programming editors will quite happily let
you use make files.

> GUI is handy for SOME applications, like moving modules around
> perhaps in a diagram, and buttons, sliders, graphs, what not.
> But not for text oriented code.

Once again I agree totally.

> For TEXT oriented code you need (are best of with) a TEXT oriented
> editor, no mouse, no, set mouse traps, get rid of these..

Zeus is just such an editor, which I assume is why Eli uses it ;)

> Fingers on the keyboard.

Always.

> But if you CANNOT have the code picture in your head, forgat
> about programming.

Agreed, but this has more to do with the individual rather than
the tool they are using.

Jussi Jumppanen
Author: Zeus for Windows Programmer's IDE

http://www.context.cx/

I have been using the above editor for 2 or three years with VHDL.. the best
editor at the price IMO

Simon

"Eli Hughes" <emh203@psu.edu> wrote in message
news:dkodda$1f9c$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu...
> Check out the Zeus Editor.   www.zeusedit.com
>
>
> Is is very lost cost and now supports Verilog files with nice code
> folding! (begin/end  case/endcase)
>
> -Eli

> At $39.95, it costs the same as Zeus.

Just curious. For the same price, does UltraEdit also come with
integrate version control, class browsing, intellisensing and
macro scripting?

The last time I checked, for these extra programming features you
needed to move up to the UltraEdit Studio which comes in at twice
the price.

> And when you report a bug, they fix it, quickly.

Zeus is no different in this regard.

Jussi Jumppanen
Author: Zeus for Windows Programmer's IDE
http://www.zeusedit.com

On 13 Nov 2005 18:30:33 -0800, jussij@zeusedit.com wrote:

>> At $39.95, it costs the same as Zeus.
>
>Just curious. For the same price, does UltraEdit also come with
>integrate version control, class browsing, intellisensing and
>macro scripting?
>
>The last time I checked, for these extra programming features you
>needed to move up to the UltraEdit Studio which comes in at twice
>the price.

Plain old UltraEdit has macro scripting.  For version control, I use
the Tortoise extension for subversion.  As for the other features you
mentioned, I don't know; I don't use them.  And I also configure
UltraEdit to run emacs Verilog mode in batch to get quick generation
of port lists, etc.  

>> And when you report a bug, they fix it, quickly.
>
>Zeus is no different in this regard.

Nor would I suggest otherwise.

I posted not to disparage anyone else's editor, but to say that
UltraEdit is nothing short of terrific.  I don't use many software
packages that elict grudging acceptance, much less praise, so when I
find a good one, I like to spread the word.

Bob Perlman
Cambrian Design Works