I'll refrain from commenting on the environmental merit of lead-free devices. I did a quick check of inventory on a representative distributor (Arrow Electronics North America) web site. Most MAX 3000A and Cyclone devices (picking 2 representative product families) have similar lead-times for both leaded and lead-free (RoHS compliant) versions. Altera's minimum order quantities are the same for both devices. We have put in place a rigorous (though clearly not perfect) plan to facitate the transition to lead-free product. This is severely complicated by the fact that not all customers have interest in immediately converting all devices to lead-free product, which generally has a different manufacturing flow. As a result we need both leaded and lead-free ordering codes for most devices and most of these lead-free ordering codes have been in place for several quarters. You can find a complete listing of Altera's lead-free solutions at http://www.altera.com/products/devices/leadfree/lead-free_index.html Dave Greenfield Altera Marketing>Today I got this in Altera's email newsletter>Get RoHS Compliant with Altera FPGAs, CPLDs and Structured ASICs>I have never seen a single 3000 series PLD available in leadfree that you >could actually purchase for delivery from stock. I have been able to buy >lead versions of most of this family without too much trouble. . . .
Altera RoHS Irony
Started by ●February 13, 2006
Reply by ●February 14, 20062006-02-14
Reply by ●February 14, 20062006-02-14
"Dave Greenfield" <davidg@altera.com> wrote in news:1139953661.537335.166000@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:> I'll refrain from commenting on the environmental merit of lead-free > devices. > > I did a quick check of inventory on a representative distributor (Arrow > Electronics North America) web site. Most MAX 3000A and Cyclone devices > (picking 2 representative product families) have similar lead-times for > both leaded and lead-free (RoHS compliant) versions. Altera's minimum > order quantities are the same for both devices. We have put in place a > rigorous (though clearly not perfect) plan to facitate the transition > to lead-free product. This is severely complicated by the fact that not > all customers have interest in immediately converting all devices to > lead-free product, which generally has a different manufacturing flow. > As a result we need both leaded and lead-free ordering codes for most > devices and most of these lead-free ordering codes have been in place > for several quarters. > > You can find a complete listing of Altera's lead-free solutions at > http://www.altera.com/products/devices/leadfree/lead-free_index.html > > > Dave Greenfield > Altera Marketing > > >>Today I got this in Altera's email newsletter > >>Get RoHS Compliant with Altera FPGAs, CPLDs and Structured ASICs > > >>I have never seen a single 3000 series PLD available in leadfree that you >>could actually purchase for delivery from stock. I have been able to buy >>lead versions of most of this family without too much trouble. . . . > >Thanks for responding Dave. I asked Arrow to place lead free parts from Altera in a bond. They came back and told us these were "GS", guaranteed stock. At the time, which was only a few months ago, they had lots of lead parts and no lead free parts in the 3000 family. Arrow now shows very long lead times for all versions. Max II parts are on allocation and I can't get these placed in my bond, but I managed to buy a small quantity. DigiKey, another Altera distributor shows only lead versions and treats lead free versions as Non-Stock items. My guess is that they didn't want to sell both types and wanted to make sure that they had gotten rid of all the lead inventory first. In my view, very few customers are going to want to stop selling to the EU. I realize that there are exceptions to the mandates and that some customers really don't care. Generally a lead free part works just fine with a lead solder process (except BGAs since the profile needs to be different). My rant started because as a supplier of single source parts, you need to insure reasonable deliveries. At the moment, you aren't promising parts before June. At the same time, your promotional material is bragging that you are committed to RoHS parts that have never been readily available to my knowledge. Maybe you just underestimated the demand, problems in the distribution channel or difficulties with process changes. I know that Altera is not alone with this problem, its the irony of the ad that set me off.... -- Al Clark Danville Signal Processing, Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Purveyors of Fine DSP Hardware and other Cool Stuff Available at http://www.danvillesignal.com
Reply by ●February 15, 20062006-02-15
Al Clark wrote:> DigiKey, another Altera distributor shows only lead versions and treats > lead free versions as Non-Stock items. My guess is that they didn't want to > sell both types and wanted to make sure that they had gotten rid of all the > lead inventory first.I don't think you are going to see leaded parts going away just because the EU requires lead free parts. I work for a company that gets a lot of attention from distributors and manufacturers and they have assured us that lead based parts will be around for a long time. There are just too many designs that are not going to change even if they can't be sold in the EU.> In my view, very few customers are going to want to stop selling to the EU. > I realize that there are exceptions to the mandates and that some customers > really don't care. Generally a lead free part works just fine with a lead > solder process (except BGAs since the profile needs to be different).In general, not many are interested in taking chances with their process. There is no shortage of lead parts and there are lots of customers outside the EU. Although many will want to convert their manufacturing right away, there are many who don't want to be on the bleeding edge. They will wait out the transition and adopt the new processes only after they are fully proven. One thing I keep hearing about is how the lead free solder is brittle. I don't know if this is true, but mechanical failure is just as bad and electrical failure of a part.> My rant started because as a supplier of single source parts, you need to > insure reasonable deliveries. At the moment, you aren't promising parts > before June. At the same time, your promotional material is bragging that > you are committed to RoHS parts that have never been readily available to > my knowledge. Maybe you just underestimated the demand, problems in the > distribution channel or difficulties with process changes. I know that > Altera is not alone with this problem, its the irony of the ad that set me > off....
Reply by ●February 15, 20062006-02-15
rickman wrote:> Al Clark wrote: > >>DigiKey, another Altera distributor shows only lead versions and treats >>lead free versions as Non-Stock items. My guess is that they didn't want to >>sell both types and wanted to make sure that they had gotten rid of all the >>lead inventory first. > > > I don't think you are going to see leaded parts going away just because > the EU requires lead free parts. I work for a company that gets a lot > of attention from distributors and manufacturers and they have assured > us that lead based parts will be around for a long time. There are > just too many designs that are not going to change even if they can't > be sold in the EU.Can you clarify which ones actually _have_ lead, as opposed to not being RoHS complaint ( which includes other materials too ). ie I thought that gull wing packages like TQFP and PQFP, as well as MLF packages, resistors, caps, are already tin or nickel plated, and have been for a while ? BGA packages, I CAN understand, as they use Solder Balls, so those you would want to match to your paste... -jg
Reply by ●February 15, 20062006-02-15
Jim Granville wrote:> rickman wrote: > > Al Clark wrote: > > > >>DigiKey, another Altera distributor shows only lead versions and treats > >>lead free versions as Non-Stock items. My guess is that they didn't want to > >>sell both types and wanted to make sure that they had gotten rid of all the > >>lead inventory first. > > > > > > I don't think you are going to see leaded parts going away just because > > the EU requires lead free parts. I work for a company that gets a lot > > of attention from distributors and manufacturers and they have assured > > us that lead based parts will be around for a long time. There are > > just too many designs that are not going to change even if they can't > > be sold in the EU. >> Can you clarify which ones actually _have_ lead, as opposed to > not being RoHS complaint ( which includes other materials too ).The RoHS rules have holes large enough to drive the entire EU parliament through (while drinking) One notable 'exempt' industry is automotive, so expect the automotive parts to not necessarily change - indeed TI has separated it's automotive catalog from it's other offerings already. As automotive accounts for a rather large percentage of small electronics devices, that exemption alone renders most of RoHS farcical. If the intent is to protect consumers, then perhaps it's a good idea, but the fact of the matter is it is more expensive to manufacture completely RoHS boards (I know, I design them and get the quotes from contract manufacturers). The consumer market being what it is, it will mean either a lower profit margin (the consumer market is notoriously price sensitive) or products simply not being offered on consumer scales. Just my take Cheers PeteS> > ie I thought that gull wing packages like TQFP and PQFP, as > well as MLF packages, resistors, caps, > are already tin or nickel plated, and have been for a while ? > > BGA packages, I CAN understand, as they use Solder Balls, > so those you would want to match to your paste... > > -jg
Reply by ●February 15, 20062006-02-15
Hi Al, If you check an European distributor for Altera like EBV (www.ebv.com) you should see that they do have a fair amount of lead-free inventory of Altera. So it inculdes their distis. I think this campain is more for the European market since we need to go over to the RoHS side now. In US only the companies that sell products into Europe has to comply with their products (AFAIK). That might explain Arrows lack of stocking in NA.=20 Just my 0,02=80 Fredrik
Reply by ●February 15, 20062006-02-15
Jim Granville <no.spam@designtools.co.nz> wrote in news:43f2b6aa@clear.net.nz:> rickman wrote: >> Al Clark wrote: >> >>>DigiKey, another Altera distributor shows only lead versions and >>>treats lead free versions as Non-Stock items. My guess is that they >>>didn't want to sell both types and wanted to make sure that they had >>>gotten rid of all the lead inventory first. >> >> >> I don't think you are going to see leaded parts going away just >> because the EU requires lead free parts. I work for a company that >> gets a lot of attention from distributors and manufacturers and they >> have assured us that lead based parts will be around for a long time. >> There are just too many designs that are not going to change even if >> they can't be sold in the EU. > > Can you clarify which ones actually _have_ lead, as opposed to > not being RoHS complaint ( which includes other materials too ). > > ie I thought that gull wing packages like TQFP and PQFP, as > well as MLF packages, resistors, caps, > are already tin or nickel plated, and have been for a while ?You have to check with each mfr. Some have new numbers, some don't. Altera places an 'N" at the end of their part number. Lots of passives, QFPs, etc use lead solder plating> > BGA packages, I CAN understand, as they use Solder Balls, > so those you would want to match to your paste...Its important to pay attention to BGAs because the balls are solder. If they are lead free, they melt at a higher temperature than lead-tin solder.> > -jg > >-- Al Clark Danville Signal Processing, Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Purveyors of Fine DSP Hardware and other Cool Stuff Available at http://www.danvillesignal.com
Reply by ●February 15, 20062006-02-15
Gentlemen, May I remind you that that the leadfree, RoHS and Green stuff started in Japan, not in Europe. Europe adopted to this Japanes initiative, and only the US seems to have problems. I think the problem is that US just waited to long to start investigating how to implement. Luc On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:53:25 GMT, Al Clark <dsp@danvillesignal.com> wrote:>"Nial Stewart" <nial@nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk> wrote in >news:45eg2iF6cp26U1@individual.net: > >>> Sometimes, I think that the Europeans think that all products are >>> like consumer items that have a product life of a few months or maybe >>> a year (like a PC or cell phone). >> >> >> Al, >> >> Please don't tarr us all with the European 'politician's brush, they >> just _don't_ think. >> >> A couple of weeks ago someone on sci.electronics.design (I think) >> posted a link to a presentation that quoted TI's figures, that a >> worldwide conversion to lead free packages would save about the same >> amount of lead as in TEN car batteries. >> >> The european parliament is a complete waste of time and a huge waste >> of money. >> >> >> Nial. >> >> >> > >Fair enough, We sell our products to many European companies, both small >and large. I sure many EU based companies are struggling with these same >issues.
Reply by ●February 15, 20062006-02-15
Dave Greenfield wrote:> I'll refrain from commenting on the environmental merit of lead-free > devices. > > I did a quick check of inventory on a representative distributor (Arrow > Electronics North America) web site. Most MAX 3000A and Cyclone devices > (picking 2 representative product families) have similar lead-times for > both leaded and lead-free (RoHS compliant) versions. Altera's minimum > order quantities are the same for both devices. We have put in place a > rigorous (though clearly not perfect) plan to facitate the transition > to lead-free product. This is severely complicated by the fact that not > all customers have interest in immediately converting all devices to > lead-free product, which generally has a different manufacturing flow. > As a result we need both leaded and lead-free ordering codes for most > devices and most of these lead-free ordering codes have been in place > for several quarters. >For most component packages, there should not be a problem with providing only lead-free versions - some manufacturers (TI, IIRC) have been doing that for years. BGA packages are a different matter, of course, as lead-free solder balls need higher temperatures. So I suppose it's more of a problem for a company like Altera than most manufacturers, since a higher proportion of your chips are BGA. Perhaps Intel's copper pillar packaging would be a good choice in the future? (Not that I know anything about it other than the name...)> You can find a complete listing of Altera's lead-free solutions at > http://www.altera.com/products/devices/leadfree/lead-free_index.html > > > Dave Greenfield > Altera Marketing > > >> Today I got this in Altera's email newsletter > >> Get RoHS Compliant with Altera FPGAs, CPLDs and Structured ASICs > > >> I have never seen a single 3000 series PLD available in leadfree that you >> could actually purchase for delivery from stock. I have been able to buy >> lead versions of most of this family without too much trouble. . . . >
Reply by ●February 15, 20062006-02-15
