MM, We restrict webcases from being filed by students: (the only stated restriction) http://www.xilinx.com/support/clearexpress/websupport.htm http://www.xilinx.com/univ/studentsupport.htm That said, the professors who use our components are allowed to file cases (they are instructed on how by the XUP program), and individuals who wish to file a webcase do have to register in a way that at least causes us to believe that they are a real or potential customer. Austin
Why is Xilinx's WebPACK so inferior?
Started by ●March 20, 2007
Reply by ●March 21, 20072007-03-21
Reply by ●March 21, 20072007-03-21
"MM" <mbmsv@yahoo.com> writes:> > You can't file reports to the company until you register. > > I believe only paying customers can create webcases...That's the impression I got too, and I believe it's just plain silly. First of all, I paid for my demo board, so in a sense, I'm a paying customer, albiet a tiny, tiny, tiny one. But, when a tool breaks, it breaks equally for paying and non-paying customers, so it behooves the company to listen to all issues found about a product, as the resolution of those issues, no matter if they come from a paying customer or a freeloader, will make the tools all that much better. And, here's the big secret, when the tools are better, the "paying customers" might be willing to pay even more money for better tools! thutt
Reply by ●March 21, 20072007-03-21
Thomas Entner wrote:>> In other words, XST is a test vehicle where we are intentionally >> experimenting, in order to improve. > > Hi Austin, > > is this your personal meaning, or official Xilinx? Do the > Xilinx-software-team see their work in this context? Does this mean, that > XST and/or ISE should not be used for serious work?That is pretty much what it means and what is written on the XST page from Xilinx's own site, in "marketese" as Austin said. Look elsewhere in this thread to find Austin's link to the relevant Xilinx page. Go check job postings on monster, workopolis and others. Look for some high-profile FPGA applications and see how many mention Xilinx FPGAs as the target and Synplify as required/asset... nearly 100%. It becomes pretty obvious that very few serious rely on XST.
Reply by ●March 21, 20072007-03-21
Taylor Hutt <thutt151@comcast.net> wrote:> >I've been using the Xilinx Webpack 8.2i since sometime in November, >and I've become so irritated with their software that I'm about ready >to just become a rabid Xilinx basher.The reason I'm still using 7.x is that the schematics editor in 8.x and higher uses aliasing which -litteraly- makes me cry because I can't focus on aliased lines (and yes, I have an excellent monitor). Why do they want to fix things that aren't broken? -- Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.) Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl
Reply by ●March 21, 20072007-03-21
"Thomas Entner" <aon.912710880@aon.at> wrote in message news:46014d7e$0$25619$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at...> Does this mean, that > XST and/or ISE should not be used for serious work?Unfortunately, there is no way of not using ISE back-end tools when working with Xilinx devices. You can replace XST synthesis with 3rd party, but not map or par. /Mikhail
Reply by ●March 21, 20072007-03-21
If a tool is broken, it's good to know from any source. But how many webcases from "freeloaders" - students or otherwise - are truely tool errors and not a user issue? (I don't consider students as freeloaders but acknowledge that the professor should be better informed as a first resort for problem resolution). It takes time and effort - real cost to Xilinx - to go through every webcase that isn't a case at all but instead an issue of understanding the tool or language capabilities. Why should I expect even an hour's worth of a Customer Application Engineer's time if the only person benefitting from the time is me? Not some company I work for now or in the future, not Xilinx, but only myself. If I have a problem with a fireplace insert I bought, I can call up customer service to enquire about getting the fireplace insert replaced. I can't expect extensive help on figuring out how to properly burn wet newspapers. If I already know how to burn wet newspapers or can get the proper information elsewhere, more power to me. If burning wet newspapers means selling hundreds more fireplace inserts, it could be appropriate for the manufacturer to spend some time and resources (money) helping me out. Just because I bought the product doesn't mean I deserve development support. "Taylor Hutt" <thutt151@comcast.net> wrote in message news:m3veguph24.fsf@localhost.localdomain...> "MM" <mbmsv@yahoo.com> writes: > >> > You can't file reports to the company until you register. >> >> I believe only paying customers can create webcases... > > That's the impression I got too, and I believe it's just plain silly. > First of all, I paid for my demo board, so in a sense, I'm a paying > customer, albiet a tiny, tiny, tiny one. > > But, when a tool breaks, it breaks equally for paying and non-paying > customers, so it behooves the company to listen to all issues found > about a product, as the resolution of those issues, no matter if they > come from a paying customer or a freeloader, will make the tools all > that much better. And, here's the big secret, when the tools are > better, the "paying customers" might be willing to pay even more money > for better tools! > > thutt
Reply by ●March 21, 20072007-03-21
Daniel S. wrote:> Go check job postings on monster, workopolis and others. Look for some > high-profile FPGA applications and see how many mention Xilinx FPGAs as > the target and Synplify as required/asset... nearly 100%. It becomes > pretty obvious that very few serious rely on XST.I do. It's good. But I try to run my stuff through Synplify as well. The code should compile cleanly in XST, ModelSim, and Synplify, just like C++ should compile cleanly in vc, bcc, and gcc. And if it's a wacky bug I go to Synplify first - it's better at showing me where I have tried to be clever ;-)
Reply by ●March 21, 20072007-03-21
"John_H" <newsgroup@johnhandwork.com> writes:> If a tool is broken, it's good to know from any source. But how > many webcases from "freeloaders" - students or otherwise - are > truely tool errors and not a user issue? (I don't consider students > as freeloaders but acknowledge that the professor should be better > informed as a first resort for problem resolution). It takes time > and effort - real cost to Xilinx - to go through every webcase that > isn't a case at all but instead an issue of understanding the tool > or language capabilities.Not every part of a business is a money making enterprise, so it's a bit of a false argument to claim that they shouldn't accept reports from 'freeloaders' (my word) because it might cost too much money. Yes, that happens. There are all sorts of problems like that; at the company where I work, there are countless hours spent tracking down problems which turn out to be bad RAM in the customers computer. There are countless other hours lost tracking down a problem with the software, to have it turn out they supplied the wrong core file. Generally, it's pretty easy to determine who's reporting a legitimate error, who's trying to get hints on their homework, and who is a newbie, and that doesn't really take much time. This can also be mitigated by having a good front end for categorizing issues the the product: Select product. Select type of problem. If your problem isn't shown in the selection list, then you're in the wrong place. But, what I'm talking about is absolutely legitimate errors: internal crashes with assertion failure information, language constructs which are handled incorrectly -- with simple test programs which demonstrate the error. When the 'freeloader' is willing to do all the work for you, except actually fix the issue, it's pretty cheap to listen.> Why should I expect even an hour's worth of a Customer Application > Engineer's time if the only person benefitting from the time is me? > Not some company I work for now or in the future, not Xilinx, but > only myself.When a legitmate defect is fixed, the whole world benefits. thutt
Reply by ●March 21, 20072007-03-21
Austin Lesea wrote:> Thomas, > > It is up to you. After you read the FAQ sheet, and the quote: > > "Xilinx uses XST as a proving ground for many of the innovative > optimization ideas that Xilinx engineers have for improving HDL design > flows for Xilinx devices. These improvements are then shared with Xilinx > third party synthesis partners to ensure that anyone targeting Xilinx > FPGAs as their solution can benefit from the best optimization the > industry has to offer." ><snip>> as right there in the FAQ it states that it > is not a 100% complete tool (recognizing all possible elements and > constructs).No, you've lost me - _where_ does it state it is not a 100% complete tool ? and where does it state that you are dreaming if you expect "XYZ to synthesize correctly in XST" ? What you are saying may well be Xilinx corporate policy, and the WEB merely the PR spin of the nastier reality, but it is hard to believe a company would be that short sighted. No one from the XST SW team has commented yet - well, at least not on this forum/thread ;) -jg
Reply by ●March 21, 20072007-03-21
On Mar 21, 2:59 pm, "MM" <m...@yahoo.com> wrote:> "Thomas Entner" <aon.912710...@aon.at> wrote in message > > news:46014d7e$0$25619$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at... > > > Does this mean, that > > XST and/or ISE should not be used for serious work? > > Unfortunately, there is no way of not using ISE back-end tools when working > with Xilinx devices. You can replace XST synthesis with 3rd party, but not > map or par.I have a sneaking suspicion that whoever manages Xilinx's programmers is aware of that fact, and allocates resources accordingly...
