DDR3 speed, Altera vs Xilinx

Antti,

Did you actually perform the google search, and read some of the links?

It is not as crazy as it seems.

As for "retro computing" I found more Xilinx implementations that any
other (of old computers).

But, I suggest we drop this, as it really has no meaning.

Some hobby areas I am well aware of use Altera exclusively, others use
Xilinx.  It really depends on who used what first.  If the first person
used A vs. X, then that entire genre is then using A (as the first
person did all the hard work, and the easiest path is to use what the
person did before you).

Regardless, the hobby market is not one that Altera or Xilinx is going
after.

Austin

On 14 Mrz., 21:25, austin <aus...@xilinx.com> wrote:
> Antti,
>
> Did you actually perform the google search, and read some of the links?
>
> It is not as crazy as it seems.
>
> As for "retro computing" I found more Xilinx implementations that any
> other (of old computers).
>
> But, I suggest we drop this, as it really has no meaning.
>
> Some hobby areas I am well aware of use Altera exclusively, others use
> Xilinx.  It really depends on who used what first.  If the first person
> used A vs. X, then that entire genre is then using A (as the first
> person did all the hard work, and the easiest path is to use what the
> person did before you).
>
> Regardless, the hobby market is not one that Altera or Xilinx is going
> after.
>
> Austin

:) you say it.
well, if you have found ONE commercially produced retro computing
platform with Xilinx i would like the reference.

yes, of course, Trenz has retro-computing BASEBOARD (for xilinx
modules) but this does not count.
there is also the board from the xilinx guy, but that was never
commercially produced.

besides those I do not know any.

ah, now i understand; yes there are may REAL hobby retro projects
implemented for Xilinx FPGA

but I was talking about BOARDS designed for retro-computing as MAIN
purpose.
from those 3 are made with xilinx.

burched tried something, but it was genpurpose xilinx board + modules
combined and named as retro computer, so it doesnt count as well.

but still, if any one is aware of ONE SINGLE commercially produced
device for retrocomputing made with Xilinx FPGA I am all ears..

Antti

On 14 Mrz., 22:12, Antti <Antti.Luk...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 14 Mrz., 21:25, austin <aus...@xilinx.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Antti,
>
> > Did you actually perform the google search, and read some of the links?
>
> > It is not as crazy as it seems.
>
> > As for "retro computing" I found more Xilinx implementations that any
> > other (of old computers).
>
> > But, I suggest we drop this, as it really has no meaning.
>
> > Some hobby areas I am well aware of use Altera exclusively, others use
> > Xilinx.  It really depends on who used what first.  If the first person
> > used A vs. X, then that entire genre is then using A (as the first
> > person did all the hard work, and the easiest path is to use what the
> > person did before you).
>
> > Regardless, the hobby market is not one that Altera or Xilinx is going
> > after.
>
> > Austin
>
> :) you say it.
> well, if you have found ONE commercially produced retro computing
> platform with Xilinx i would like the reference.
>
> yes, of course, Trenz has retro-computing BASEBOARD (for xilinx
> modules) but this does not count.
> there is also the board from the xilinx guy, but that was never
> commercially produced.
>
> besides those I do not know any.
>
> ah, now i understand; yes there are may REAL hobby retro projects
> implemented for Xilinx FPGA
>
> but I was talking about BOARDS designed for retro-computing as MAIN
> purpose.
> from those 3 are made with xilinx.
>
> burched tried something, but it was genpurpose xilinx board + modules
> combined and named as retro computer, so it doesnt count as well.
>
> but still, if any one is aware of ONE SINGLE commercially produced
> device for retrocomputing made with Xilinx FPGA I am all ears..
>
> Antti

sorry my typo, above must read:

from those 3 are made with altera!

typing too fast. should maybe follow some advice given long time ago:
"cut the 37 fingers" (then it types better)

Antti

austin <austin@xilinx.com> wrote:

> Some hobby areas I am well aware of use Altera exclusively, others use
> Xilinx.  It really depends on who used what first.  If the first person
> used A vs. X, then that entire genre is then using A (as the first
> person did all the hard work, and the easiest path is to use what the
> person did before you).

> Regardless, the hobby market is not one that Altera or Xilinx is going
> after.

It's not a "market" it's a marketing/advertising opportunity.  If I 
were A or X I think I'd hire a full-time product-evangelist engineering
position and task them with getting products into the hands of new 
users and supporting the "hobbyist" people.  Make a $10 battery
powered demo board with some blinkenlights and give them away to
pretty much anyone who wants one.  Send someone to the Maker Fair
and similar venues with a few hundred giveaway boards and CDs with
WebPack etc.  Sounds like pretty cheap advertising to me.

Austin's two paragraphs above only make sense together if he believes
that no hobbyist ever turns into (or even communicates with) a 
professional FPGA-using engineer.  Otherwise half of the game is
getting more mindshare than the competition and having people feel
good about your brand and tools when someday someone says "hey, 
maybe we should use an FPGA for this application".

There's a lot of profit in having your brand be the first one that
people encounter.

G.

austin wrote:
> 
> Some hobby areas I am well aware of use Altera exclusively, others use
> Xilinx.  It really depends on who used what first.  If the first person
> used A vs. X, then that entire genre is then using A (as the first
> person did all the hard work, and the easiest path is to use what the
> person did before you).
> 

I guess I could be considered a "hobbyist" in the sense that I did a few
retro-computing designs. See http://mirrow.com/FPGApple
However I also consider myself to be a "professional". At least I do EE
for a living.

The first 3 were done using the S3 Digilent board. The last 2 using the 
Altera DE1 board.

Both A and X tools have advantages. The biggest advantage in the A tools 
for retro-computing (IMHO) is the ability to edit BRAM (M4K) via JTAG.
Built into the tools. Very convenient for loading firmware without 
needing to rerun the par that takes forever.

I got the DE1 board as a quick way to prototype a "real" project. It has 
single data rate SDRAM that is easier to use. Plus 2 power voltages 
instead of 3.

Why am I telling you all of this? Just to illustrate that choices are 
often dictated by minor details. So I got a board for real work and 
decided to make a port of my toy design to get familiar with it.

-Alex.

John_H <newsgroup@johnhandwork.com> wrote:

>On Mar 14, 10:41=A0am, n...@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:
><snip>
>>
>> A lot can be said about Altera, but almost every hobbiest FPGA user in
>> the world is using Altera devices. This certainly says something about
>> the ease of use of Altera parts and software.
>>
><snip>
>
>I'd love to see your reference  ;-)

Just look around in electronics forums for beginners and start
counting.

-- 
Programmeren in Almere?
E-mail naar nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)

austin <austin@xilinx.com> wrote:

>Antti,
>
>Did you actually perform the google search, and read some of the links?
>
>It is not as crazy as it seems.
>
>As for "retro computing" I found more Xilinx implementations that any
>other (of old computers).
>
>But, I suggest we drop this, as it really has no meaning.
>
>Some hobby areas I am well aware of use Altera exclusively, others use
>Xilinx.  It really depends on who used what first.  If the first person
>used A vs. X, then that entire genre is then using A (as the first
>person did all the hard work, and the easiest path is to use what the
>person did before you).
>
>Regardless, the hobby market is not one that Altera or Xilinx is going
>after.

And here you guys are making a serious mistake. People tend to
continue use the devices they learned work with at home or at school.
I see this regulary with interns. If they learned to work with FPGA's
from Altera, they will look at Altera first if they need something. So
if Altera fits the bill, Altera wins a design-in into a product.

I see this happen every time with interns. Ofcourse Altera can be
replaced by any manufacturer's name.

-- 
Programmeren in Almere?
E-mail naar nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)

On 15 Mrz., 09:50, n...@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:
> austin <aus...@xilinx.com> wrote:
> >Antti,
>
> >Did you actually perform the google search, and read some of the links?
>
> >It is not as crazy as it seems.
>
> >As for "retro computing" I found more Xilinx implementations that any
> >other (of old computers).
>
> >But, I suggest we drop this, as it really has no meaning.
>
> >Some hobby areas I am well aware of use Altera exclusively, others use
> >Xilinx.  It really depends on who used what first.  If the first person
> >used A vs. X, then that entire genre is then using A (as the first
> >person did all the hard work, and the easiest path is to use what the
> >person did before you).
>
> >Regardless, the hobby market is not one that Altera or Xilinx is going
> >after.
>
> And here you guys are making a serious mistake. People tend to
> continue use the devices they learned work with at home or at school.
> I see this regulary with interns. If they learned to work with FPGA's
> from Altera, they will look at Altera first if they need something. So
> if Altera fits the bill, Altera wins a design-in into a product.
>
> I see this happen every time with interns. Ofcourse Altera can be
> replaced by any manufacturer's name.
>
> --
> Programmeren in Almere?
> E-mail naar nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)

You are so right. It's sometimes even surprising how much we all
"try to play with known toys", I am trying to get rid of my
electronics
junkyard, so I asked on german forums if someone wants to look
and grab things of interest. So one student did come, and all he
looked for was PIC stuff, he say he know that, and thats it.
No Atmel chip, no FPGA thing, nothing just the things he had
used before.

I used PIC when PIC15C54 was "hot", as they had almost
no competition. I changed to AVR as they are better.

But Microchip is still VERY succesful selling his PICs
that are really bad architecture, mainly because of their
marketing. Every **** student wants PIC, and they will
use it in the everyday work later on too. No matter
that there are no advantages of using PIC. Its just
the routine, and "familiar", it will be used if it fits.

So the "educational" and hobby, etc.. is of importance.
Also for FPGA vendors i would say. Without the "edu+hobby"
popularity of the PIC's Microchip could not have success.

2eurocents
Antti

Antti <Antti.Lukats@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 15 Mrz., 09:50, n...@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:
..
> > And here you guys are making a serious mistake. People tend to
> > continue use the devices they learned work with at home or at school.
> > I see this regulary with interns. If they learned to work with FPGA's
> > from Altera, they will look at Altera first if they need something. So
> > if Altera fits the bill, Altera wins a design-in into a product.
> >
> > I see this happen every time with interns. Ofcourse Altera can be
> > replaced by any manufacturer's name.
> >

> You are so right. It's sometimes even surprising how much we all
> "try to play with known toys", I am trying to get rid of my
> electronics
...

Complex parts like complex FPGA/CPLD need complex toolchain. You have to
manage these tools for a long time, if you once decide to roll out some
product with this chain. So changing FPGA needs changing the chain and
careing for both, so you think double before changing...

-- 
Uwe Bonnes                bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de

Institut fuer Kernphysik  Schlossgartenstrasse 9  64289 Darmstadt
--------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------

On Mar 14, 10:26=A0pm, ga...@allegro.com (Gavin Scott) wrote:
> austin <aus...@xilinx.com> wrote:
> Austin's two paragraphs above only make sense together if he believes
> that no hobbyist ever turns into (or even communicates with) a
> professional FPGA-using engineer. =A0Otherwise half of the game is
> getting more mindshare than the competition and having people feel
> good about your brand and tools when someday someone says "hey,
> maybe we should use an FPGA for this application".
>
> There's a lot of profit in having your brand be the first one that
> people encounter.
>

Hence the Xilinx University Programme.
Certainly, in the UK both Xilinx and Mentor FPGA tools are widely used
across Universities.
If this isn't promotion to potential professionals then I don't know
what is.
For the hobbyist, a low-end Digilent board and ISE WebPack never broke
the bank.

As to implementing DDRx interfaces, having put a DDR2 interface on a
V5LX50 device last year, I am not sure that the flexibility of the
underlying structure is necessarily worthwhile the hassle for the end
user.
The general purpose flexibility of the logic is made irrelevant by the
number of different pinouts of Xilinx devices in a series.
The main gain is for the silicon vendor in being able to have fewer
product variants and save real-estate on hard implementations of
features that only a few customers want.

Andrew