Xilinx news

On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 16:06:46 -0800, Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:51:12 -0800 (PST), rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>>Distance doesn't create problems in management... management creates
>>problems in management.  I've worked on projects where no two people
>>were in the same city and they progressed well, except for the
>>management which kept feeding lies upstream in order to tell them what
>>they wanted to hear.  I guess one difference is that it is a bit
>>harder to manage by "walking around", something upper management
>>should do.  Then they can find out things that they aren't being
>>told.
>>
>
>Actually, distance DOES create problems in management, and modern
>management techniques are not very effective.  The ability to manage a
>distributed workforce is a very rare talent.  Among the requirements,
>is enough technical skill to be able to divide the task into
>appropriate pieces, and have the ability to make sure that all the
>system requirements are complete, and that they are being met by each
>member of the team.

It creates problems but it certainly can be done.  I worked on the processor
Apple used in its G5 PowerMacs.  About a quarter of the processor was done in
Germany, a little in Texas, and we did the rest along with all the chip
integration.  It worked out very well but as you say, the system requirements
were very well laid out and the project was divided by functional unit.

>It also requires the right sort of project, where inter-member
>interaction is only needed for specific tasks, and not for just
>general co-ordination...

That certainly helps.  Basically it's broken down into smaller projects, each
more or less independent.

BTW, we tried to bring on some people in India.  A lot of effort was spent
coordinating the project and no results were ever seen from them.  It takes
the right people, too.

On Jan 24, 2:51=A0pm, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 24, 12:21=A0pm, John Larkin
>
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> <jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:09:42 +0100, David Brown
>
> > <da...@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:
>
> > >I find it hard to believe that supposedly educated, intelligent and
> > >experienced engineers can post such ignorant xenophobic drivel.
>
> > Well, two facts exist:
>
> > 1. Their software is a nightmare, and it's costing them business
>
> > 2. They are dumping the French operation.
>
> > The software is the heart of an FPGA company. The very architecture of
> > the chip has to be coordinated with possible compiler strategies. The
> > idea of outsourcing anything this important to a group 8 or 9 time
> > zones away, working in another language, in a country where it's
> > almost impossible to fire incompetant workers, where people take long
> > lunches with wine and don't work weekends, just amazes me.
>
> This is probably a discussion to stay out of, but I want to correct a
> misapprehension on your part. =A0I have worked with the French at a
> major telecom company and will tell you that they are no more
> incompetent or drunk than American workers. =A0The continent does have a
> different work culture in terms of leave. =A0They get lots more vacation
> than we typically do and they manage to get their work done without
> working late nights and weekends.
>
> Actually I have always thought it very odd that US workers were
> willing to take on the burden of completing projects on time and
> budget when they have little or no say in the process of setting those
> goals. =A0Lets face it. =A0Being willing to work unlimited, unpaid
> overtime is something that the majority of workers in the US are
> unwilling to do. =A0For some reason engineers seem to be in a class all
> by themselves in that regard here in the US. =A0What other professions
> are willing to do that?
>
> > >Xilinx (or rather, their users and customers) have trouble with the
> > >Xilinx software because the Xilinx leadership do not prioritise it
> > >appropriately, and (apparently) do not listen to or understand the
> > >issues customers have with the software. =A0They alone are at fault. =
=A0It
> > >could well be that the main management fault was to hire a development
> > >team that was not competent to do the development - but the problem is
> > >their lack of competence, not their nationality!
>
> > I'd have been equally surprised had they outsourced anything this
> > core-critical to any other country that far from San Jose. Big
> > Software is nearly impossible to manage even without an ocean in the
> > way.
>
> Distance doesn't create problems in management... management creates
> problems in management. =A0I've worked on projects where no two people
> were in the same city and they progressed well, except for the
> management which kept feeding lies upstream in order to tell them what
> they wanted to hear. =A0I guess one difference is that it is a bit
> harder to manage by "walking around", something upper management
> should do. =A0Then they can find out things that they aren't being
> told.
>
> But none of this has to do with nationality.
>
> Rick

The nationality/work style thing is interesting. I've had the fortune
to work in a few european countries (Germany, Ireland), as well as the
US (San Jose). I really didn't find that the difference in vacation
led to better performance - I knew many good engineers in all
locations, and many terrible ones. In fact, I found that in the US (IC
design company), people were very much 9-5, even when busy, and talked
a lot. I liked the atmosphere, but I can't say it was that productive!
Better rested and rewarded employees are likely more productive,
because they feel mutual respect is more than a word, more vacation
means better balance, less burn out, more creativity, etc. I think
this may be why some silicon valley companies are getting close to 20
vacation days a year now...if your industry required drones, sure work
em to the bone, but in design, be it software, hardware or otherwise,
you certainly don't want drones...

On Jan 24, 3:09=A0am, David Brown <da...@westcontrol.removethisbit.com>
wrote:
> On 23/01/2011 06:10, John Larkin wrote:
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 23:03:16 -0600, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
> > <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> =A0wrote:
>
> >> On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 18:20:55 -0800, John Larkin
> >> <jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> =A0wrote:
>
> >>>http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4212400/Xilinx-to-shutter-Fre.=
..
>
> >>> Yikes, this explains some stuff. I wonder how long it will take to
> >>> undo the damage.
>
> >> Damage? =A0The damage caused by closing a software development lab?
>
> > I meant the damage likely *done* by that lab. We'd been speculating
> > how Xininx managed to snarl up their software so thoroughly, and
> > whether they will ever get it fixed. I can't imagine why they'd
> > outsource something this important to France.
>
> I find it hard to believe that supposedly educated, intelligent and
> experienced engineers can post such ignorant xenophobic drivel.
>
> Xilinx (or rather, their users and customers) have trouble with the
> Xilinx software because the Xilinx leadership do not prioritise it
> appropriately, and (apparently) do not listen to or understand the
> issues customers have with the software. =A0They alone are at fault. =A0I=
t
> could well be that the main management fault was to hire a development
> team that was not competent to do the development - but the problem is
> their lack of competence, not their nationality!
>
> I know that sci.electronics.design is a hangout for mostly geriatric
> American right-wingers who like to spend their free time blaming the
> world's ills on "leftist weenies", foreigners, atheists, intellectuals,
> and other dangerous sub-humans. =A0That's fair enough, within the limits
> of freedom of speech. =A0It can even be entertaining at times. =A0But ple=
ase
> keep that sort of thing within s.e.d. and not serious newsgroups.
>
> Follow-up flames to s.e.d., and leave c.a.f. alone for a possible
> discussion about the actual effect of this news on Xilinx and its custome=
rs.

I've been told by many a FAE that the SW is being addressed very
strongly.
So the customers have been listened to, but I guess you can't turn an
tanker on a dime, and you can't replace massively complex software
overnight, but the next generation is coming...if you have a Xilinx
FAE, ask them!

On 24/01/2011 18:21, John Larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:09:42 +0100, David Brown
> <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com>  wrote:
>
>> On 23/01/2011 06:10, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 23:03:16 -0600, "krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
>>> <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz>   wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 18:20:55 -0800, John Larkin
>>>> <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com>   wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4212400/Xilinx-to-shutter-French-R-D-operation
>>>>>
>>>>> Yikes, this explains some stuff. I wonder how long it will take to
>>>>> undo the damage.
>>>>
>>>> Damage?  The damage caused by closing a software development lab?
>>>
>>> I meant the damage likely *done* by that lab. We'd been speculating
>>> how Xininx managed to snarl up their software so thoroughly, and
>>> whether they will ever get it fixed. I can't imagine why they'd
>>> outsource something this important to France.
>>>
>>
>> I find it hard to believe that supposedly educated, intelligent and
>> experienced engineers can post such ignorant xenophobic drivel.
>
> Well, two facts exist:
>
> 1. Their software is a nightmare, and it's costing them business
>
> 2. They are dumping the French operation.
>

Fair enough.

> The software is the heart of an FPGA company. The very architecture of
> the chip has to be coordinated with possible compiler strategies. The
> idea of outsourcing anything this important to a group 8 or 9 time
> zones away, working in another language, in a country where it's
> almost impossible to fire incompetant workers, where people take long
> lunches with wine and don't work weekends, just amazes me.
>

I am also not a fan of outsourcing, and I agree 100% that time 
differences and language differences can be a big problem.  It may well 
have contributed to Xilinx's software problems - that depends on how the 
development process was organised and managed.

All I object to is the implication that the problems occurred because 
the developers were French - an "explanation" that has been repeated 
here several times as though that was all that anyone needs to know.

The fact is, there are competent and incompetent people in all 
countries.  Developing software like FPGA design software is hard, for 
many reasons.  None of us can tell if these particular developers did a 
good job with a bad spec, or a bad job with a good spec, or where the 
problem lies (though ultimately the buck must land at the top-level of 
Xilinx management).

European work laws and work traditions are different from those in the 
USA.  But there is no reason to suggest that this in any way translates 
to Americans doing better work than Europeans.  You find it hard to 
understand that some Europeans take long lunches (lunchtime alcohol is 
quite rare these days except in wine-making regions, or in "business 
lunches" - just like in the USA).  Europeans find it hard to understand 
how people can concentrate on work knowing they could be fired just 
because the boss is having a bad hair day.  It's not better or worse, 
it's different.


>>
>> Xilinx (or rather, their users and customers) have trouble with the
>> Xilinx software because the Xilinx leadership do not prioritise it
>> appropriately, and (apparently) do not listen to or understand the
>> issues customers have with the software.  They alone are at fault.  It
>> could well be that the main management fault was to hire a development
>> team that was not competent to do the development - but the problem is
>> their lack of competence, not their nationality!
>
> I'd have been equally surprised had they outsourced anything this
> core-critical to any other country that far from San Jose. Big
> Software is nearly impossible to manage even without an ocean in the
> way.
>

Fair enough, and I agree here.  Maybe I overreacted to the references to 
France - I read your post as a specific condemnation of the lab having 
been in France, rather than a general condemnation of the lab being 
outsourced.  It is not clear to me whether I inferred too much, or 
whether you implied too much - if it is the former, then I apologise for 
overreacting; if it is the later, then I hope you can see my point.

>
>>
>> I know that sci.electronics.design is a hangout for mostly geriatric
>> American right-wingers who like to spend their free time blaming the
>> world's ills on "leftist weenies", foreigners, atheists, intellectuals,
>> and other dangerous sub-humans.
>
> Jim isn't typical.
>

No, he stands out a bit even in s.e.d.  But he isn't alone, either. 
However, it makes the group good for an argument sometimes, if time 
allows - there's no point arguing if everyone agrees, and s.e.d. is a 
group where people don't hold back in their disagreements!

mvh.,

David

On 24/01/2011 20:59, Greegor wrote:
> On Jan 24, 2:09 am, David Brown<da...@westcontrol.removethisbit.com>
> wrote:
>> I find it hard to believe that supposedly educated, intelligent and
>> experienced engineers can post such ignorant xenophobic drivel.
>>
>> Xilinx (or rather, their users and customers) have trouble with the
>> Xilinx software because the Xilinx leadership do not prioritise it
>> appropriately, and (apparently) do not listen to or understand the
>> issues customers have with the software.  They alone are at fault.  It
>> could well be that the main management fault was to hire a development
>> team that was not competent to do the development - but the problem is
>> their lack of competence, not their nationality!
>>
>> I know that sci.electronics.design is a hangout for mostly geriatric
>> American right-wingers who like to spend their free time blaming the
>> world's ills on "leftist weenies", foreigners, atheists, intellectuals,
>> and other dangerous sub-humans.
>
> You left out OUTSOURCING, Downsizing,
> dumping out staff en masse and hiring them
> all back as contractors to avoid social
> responsibilities, Pensions and raiding thereof,
> H1b visas and the way corporations take
> classes on how to BS around the law
> that requires them to hire qualified US people
> for the jobs first, etc.

I'd change "qualified US people" to "qualified local people", because 
this is an international group, not a US group, and the same thing 
applies to people in most countries.  Apart from that I'd agree that a 
lot of the current economic problems in the West stem these sorts of 
things.

> (Where WERE you
> back in Jan 2010 when that was discussed?)
>

I haven't followed s.e.d. much for a while - the signal-to-noise ratio 
is quite low, but when there is an interesting thread it can often be 
very addictive and time-consuming.

> I would EXPECT that most US Engineers
> would be very well focused on all of those
> threats to their livelyhood, wouldn't you??
>

Again, this is /not/ a US issue - though as is often the case, the US 
seems to be leading the West (for good and for bad) in these practices. 
  Typically the UK follows first, while the continental European 
countries have stronger laws protecting employees and are less affected. 
  But yes, these are things that affect many engineers around the world.

On 24/01/2011 23:17, John Larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:51:12 -0800 (PST), rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com>
> wrote:
<snip>
>> But none of this has to do with nationality.
>>
>> Rick
>
>

It is important to distinguish between nationality and a country's laws 
and bureaucracy - the regulations in John's quotation are about a 
country's regulations, not an issue with the people.

> http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4212317/Xilinx--sales-fall-short-of-estimates
>
> "Xilinx recorded $4.3 million worth of restructuring charges during
> the recently concluded quarter. Olson said the charges were greater
> than expected because the company is closing its software development
> operation in France, where regulations make eliminating jobs
> difficult."
>
> John
>

Clearly we don't know /what/ regulations are at issue here, as there 
could be many.

In general, you have to have good reason for firing people in Europe, 
and normally you have to give significant notice (I don't know the 
details for France, but 3 months is standard here in Norway.  Of course, 
this also means you can't quit your job without giving 3 months notice - 
it works both ways).  But cutting staff because you are downsizing /is/ 
a good reason, though you might have to pay some sort of severance pay 
or other compensation.  You can't just tell employees to clear their 
desks on the day, but you certainly can eliminate jobs.

So maybe there is more happening here - perhaps there is some sort of 
agreement that depends on Xilinx employing a certain number of people, 
tied to tax breaks, military contracts, etc.

On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:26:06 +0100, David Brown
<david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:

>On 24/01/2011 23:17, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:51:12 -0800 (PST), rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
><snip>
>>> But none of this has to do with nationality.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>
>>
>
>It is important to distinguish between nationality and a country's laws 
>and bureaucracy - the regulations in John's quotation are about a 
>country's regulations, not an issue with the people.
>
>> http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4212317/Xilinx--sales-fall-short-of-estimates
>>
>> "Xilinx recorded $4.3 million worth of restructuring charges during
>> the recently concluded quarter. Olson said the charges were greater
>> than expected because the company is closing its software development
>> operation in France, where regulations make eliminating jobs
>> difficult."
>>
>> John
>>
>
>Clearly we don't know /what/ regulations are at issue here, as there 
>could be many.
>
>In general, you have to have good reason for firing people in Europe, 
>and normally you have to give significant notice (I don't know the 
>details for France, but 3 months is standard here in Norway.  Of course, 
>this also means you can't quit your job without giving 3 months notice - 
>it works both ways). 

Does the law require that you remain productive during those three
months?


 But cutting staff because you are downsizing /is/ 
>a good reason, though you might have to pay some sort of severance pay 
>or other compensation.  You can't just tell employees to clear their 
>desks on the day, but you certainly can eliminate jobs.

Here in California, an employer can ask an employee to take their
stuff and leave, this very day or this very instant. I did that last
week. And an employee can quit without notice. I've had people walk
into my office, say "I quit", and walk out.

John

On 26/01/2011 20:05, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:26:06 +0100, David Brown
> <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com>  wrote:
>
>> On 24/01/2011 23:17, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> In general, you have to have good reason for firing people in Europe,
>> and normally you have to give significant notice (I don't know the
>> details for France, but 3 months is standard here in Norway.  Of course,
>> this also means you can't quit your job without giving 3 months notice -
>> it works both ways).
>
> Does the law require that you remain productive during those three
> months?

It can't and that is part of the problem.

Some good guys do and others lounge around - there obviously isn't much 
you can do about it. My boss didn't work anything like as hard after he 
handed in his notice but he still did a decent job.

Sometimes it is easier and better for all concerned to negotiate an 
early split by mutual consent. But a contract of employment is a 
contract and either side can choose to enforce it to the letter.

I object to the employment contracts that top merchant bankers have 
which say that even if they wreck the company they are still entitled to 
full pay for their entire term, golden parachutes and pension pots to go 
with it. Fred the Shred being the most egregious example.

>   But cutting staff because you are downsizing /is/
>> a good reason, though you might have to pay some sort of severance pay
>> or other compensation.  You can't just tell employees to clear their
>> desks on the day, but you certainly can eliminate jobs.
>
> Here in California, an employer can ask an employee to take their
> stuff and leave, this very day or this very instant. I did that last
> week. And an employee can quit without notice. I've had people walk
> into my office, say "I quit", and walk out.

In the UK you would only do that if someone was moving to a competitor, 
was guilty of gross misconduct, endangering life or serious criminal 
acts. You would have to pay the three months compensation and holiday 
allowance too. These days with multi GB media smaller than the size of a 
thumbnail secrets walking is virtually impossible to prevent.

I have had a couple of employees escorted off the site that way.

On the flip side although you can in principle enforce the three month 
notice on an employee it generally isn't worth the effort except 
possibly at more senior levels. Most people are reasonable about it in 
the UK, but if they are not then the employer doesn't really have much 
leverage against someone who is planning to leave anyway.

Regards,
Martin Brown

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message 
news:bfv0k6ldmvka2jrkijvsm0af1m2tturev3@4ax.com...
> Here in California, an employer can ask an employee to take their
> stuff and leave, this very day or this very instant. I did that last
> week.

I've read stories of where a group of folks were asked to come out to the 
parking lot for a "meeting" and then told... oh, hey, you're laid off -- we'll 
be sending your personal effects to you via mail!

That's pretty brutal, but I suppose it's meant to insure there's absolutely no 
chance someone starts to sabotage their employer...  although you have to 
wonder what sort of relationship management has with their employees when that 
sort of thing crosses their minds; it kinda implies that the relationship was 
more one of "we're each out to exploit the other as much as possible" rather 
than one closer to "everyone wins."

> And an employee can quit without notice. I've had people walk
> into my office, say "I quit", and walk out.

That's when you say, "You can't quit, because I've already fired you!" :-)

---Joel

On 26 Jan., 21:05, John Larkin
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:26:06 +0100, David Brown
>
>
>
> <da...@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:
> >On 24/01/2011 23:17, John Larkin wrote:
> >> On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:51:12 -0800 (PST), rickman<gnu...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> ><snip>
> >>> But none of this has to do with nationality.
>
> >>> Rick
>
> >It is important to distinguish between nationality and a country's laws
> >and bureaucracy - the regulations in John's quotation are about a
> >country's regulations, not an issue with the people.
>
> >>http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4212317/Xilinx--sales-fall-sh..=
.
>
> >> "Xilinx recorded $4.3 million worth of restructuring charges during
> >> the recently concluded quarter. Olson said the charges were greater
> >> than expected because the company is closing its software development
> >> operation in France, where regulations make eliminating jobs
> >> difficult."
>
> >> John
>
> >Clearly we don't know /what/ regulations are at issue here, as there
> >could be many.
>
> >In general, you have to have good reason for firing people in Europe,
> >and normally you have to give significant notice (I don't know the
> >details for France, but 3 months is standard here in Norway. =A0Of cours=
e,
> >this also means you can't quit your job without giving 3 months notice -
> >it works both ways).
>
> Does the law require that you remain productive during those three
> months?

here in Denmark it is the same 3 month minimum notice for employer
after first 6 months,
and it goes up by one month for ever 3 years of emplyment.
It is only one month for employees.

The law says you have to do you jobs as you normally would
but you have the right to spend some time for job interviews etc.
and an employer can't make you do jobs that you normally wouldn't.


>
> =A0But cutting staff because you are downsizing /is/

heres special rule that if you fire more that ~10 there has to be
collective negotiations of how it is to be done and what the terms
will be

>
> >a good reason, though you might have to pay some sort of severance pay
> >or other compensation. =A0You can't just tell employees to clear their
> >desks on the day, but you certainly can eliminate jobs.
>
> Here in California, an employer can ask an employee to take their
> stuff and leave, this very day or this very instant. I did that last
> week. And an employee can quit without notice. I've had people walk
> into my office, say "I quit", and walk out.
>
> John

well you can tell an employee to leave immediately you'll just have
to keep paying the him for the severance period.

an employer can "expel" an employee, but that'll be in real serious
case like
stealing, spying, working for a competitor, not showing up for work
without and valid reason etc. it doesn't happen very often and usually
ends
up in court

technically I don't think an employee has the right to just leave, but
you
can't someone to show up for work

-Lasse